HiSense 65H6510G no boot

[lotas]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

This is how the life of eMMC on the programmer shows, and, strangely enough, also Hynix.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...2&postcount=19

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Unfortunately, this TV doesn't respond to Remote Control or Power Button.

oops. this first time you stated this.... then possibility of toast eMMC in place beside Soc BGA

[lotas]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

But the Boot section is still alive, and the User section has collapsed.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

so how could emmc dead if there response to RC ? or power button !! i like to learn too...
RC Map saved on emmc...

Unfortunately, this TV doesn't respond to Remote Control or Power Button.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

No, it's definitely a dead eMMC, especially since it's Hynix, which is afraid of heating, they also die in Sony TV, and in order to pull the data from the programmer via the ISP interface (without unsoldering it from the board and when freezing), because when soldering, when heated with hot air, it dies completely.

I have been wondering about heat damage to eMMC. Inspected 4 different main boards. Its an interesting observation on these no forced air cooled main boards.

• ~2015 Vizio with frequent SOC BGA solder ball thermal cracks. Big heat sink (older gen logic chip) eMMC mounted below SOCs.
  
• ~2021 Samsung. eMMC mounted below SOC. Hole in heat sink over eMMC.
  
• ~2018 LG. eMMC mounted above SOC. Hole in heat sink over eMMC.
  
• 2020 HiSense (This TV) eMMC mounted above SOC. No hole in heat sink over eMMC.

Newer TVs have much smaller/lower mass heat sinks of course as they benefit from newer logic semiconductor process (lower switching voltage and leakage)

These boards of course have different eMMC technology/generation and SOC semiconductor fabrication generation. In general, cheap Chinese TVs use domestic/Taiwan cheap SOC manufactured on older semi-conductor fab with worse heat/logic density.

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

so how could emmc dead if there response to RC ? or power button !! i like to learn too...
RC Map saved on emmc...

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Have a question on PWB always high for warm start... I obviously can't not check STBY mode power rail status

TV operation systems are different as you know.. Android system TVs or TV boxes they didn't have in circuit any SPI where developer can arrange boot script to let the TV parts start one after others. Android warm start as soon you press power on TV or on RC this command will read by eMMC / NAND where the boot / Uimage/ Kernel control the rest. so boot are always in tact / active. ( in this case the PWB are active high... and some line if need more high it will switch for example 9V to 13V ) ( while the 9V called STBY)

if you plug the tv out from wall .... then plug it in the boot will start from 0 sector .. ( this is the best way to trace boot log ) not just press power at time TV ready plugged in wall.

kernel init.rc include the function of i2c where they saved under /dev/i2c will play the function of other TV system where SPI in place /Mboot.

take for example Android TV box. we can see 5V adapter always on... or 12V always on in case there are DVB Tuner installed on the box.

so what are the different between Android TV box and TV. when both are just CPU RAM emmc/ nand.

[lotas]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

No, it’s definitely a dead eMMC, especially since it’s Hynix, which is afraid of heating, they also die in Sony TV, and in order to pull the data from the programmer via the ISP interface (without unsoldering it from the board and when freezing), because when soldering, when heated with hot air, it dies completely.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

One things important. on philips Android TV with same Soc ..we do have here many threat dealt with... Soc BGA caused dead /reboot. what we do know where are the BGA points.. what if this BGA was on of eMMC IO data rail !!!!?

just out the topic .. not all on the net are correct neither other issue to be general to other.
i still believe eMMC not dead. unless rework BGA of the Soc

Yes, certainly can be the SOC of course.

I think you are saying failure could be the common BGA lead-free solder ball cracking? Which is of course solved by reflow if BGA isn't damaged. I can try limited reflow effort (have pre-heater, hot air station but no BGA reflow station)

as the PWB always high to make warm start ( Android ) mean the Soc are always under currents stress even if its at STBY mode.

Have a question on PWB always high for warm start... I obviously can't not check STBY mode power rail status

Post #1 schematic power tree diagram shows SOC CPU and logic rail is enabled by POWER_ON/OFF. Can not find how this is turned on in schematic but I'll assume it means turning on the TV. If true, then SOC is turned off on STBY. This is surprising. I would have assumed at least 1 CPU need to be kept alive in low frequency low power state in STBY.

3.3V_Standby does keep DRAM powered up. Presumably for faster warm boot.

Can you explain what PWB always high means in more detail?

Worth a shot to replace it tho, if properly equipped to program it and the chip is 5 bucks.

yeah, not too many BGA connections but is probably at the limit of my hot air station skills Also need to research how to install boot + firmware. Looks like crypto signing is necessary.

[nomoresonys]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Worth a shot to replace it tho, if properly equipped to program it and the chip is 5 bucks.

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

lets us do it simple ... who are responsible to UART Port and allowed to communicated to other parts ? its the Soc.

who receive the break command and stop TV going forward to complete booting ??? its the Soc

where are the eMMC data IO connected ?? its to the Soc.

One things important. on philips Android TV with same Soc ..we do have here many threat dealt with... Soc BGA caused dead /reboot. what we do know where are the BGA points.. what if this BGA was on of eMMC IO data rail !!!!?

as the PWB always high to make warm start ( Android ) mean the Soc are always under currents stress even if its at STBY mode.

just out the topic .. not all on the net are correct neither other issue to be general to other.
i still believe eMMC not dead. unless rework BGA of the Soc

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Additional investigation. All signs point to dead eMMC.

• Probing and checking voltages and resistor values around eMMC basically all match Hynix datasheet spec. Board design engineer followed Hynix datasheet suggestions for various requirements like resistor/capacitor values in the eMMC's bus load and connection guide.
  
• Post #33 said all 8 data pins measure 1.8v and should be pulled low according to Hynix datasheet. This is wrong. Datasheet said pulled high (it was the data strobe line that is pulled low) So 1.8v measurement match Hynix datasheet.
  
• Everything around eMMC appears to be normal but seems it doesn't connect.

google found 2 identical problems. One TV repair guy with the same UART EMMC error codes. Removed EMMC and used RT809H NAND flash/EMMC programmer to read but failed.

https://kenotrontv.ru/topic/10105-ya...&comment=64484
http://www.ma163.com/article/view_15984.html

All just ~3 year old TVs based on MSTAR SOC running Android.

eMMC part is $5 on AliExpress (have professional hot air station) Found some older MSTAR mboot software sources. Anyone know if possible to replace eMMC + flash in mboot followed by USB firmware installation? I guess basically follow the steps of TV manufacturer to load software.

https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/t...#post-84116077

=====

Another unlikely option for repair is using other HiSense main boards. HiSense's 2021 65" Roku TV main board is plenty available at <= $20 (same SOC, PSU, speaker, IR board interface all look similiar/same?) However, I guess with t-con integration. Its unlikely to work as LCD panels are surely changed frequently by supplier and continuous cost cutting efforts for these low end priced TVs.

=====

Finally, I wonder what is killing these eMMCs? Found this tweet that may offer some clue

https://publish.twitter.com/?query=h...8&widget=Tweet

eMMC programming is not trivial. There are multiple partitions, secure access features and have evolved for probably 2 decades now with a thick access protocol spec. Its not a simple NAND flash block.

If these low cost TV's software is truly maintained by Google's Reference Plus Program (issue updates) who surely don't provide much testing effort for a huge list of cheap TVs. Cheap TV manufacturers performing minimum upgrade testing (or non at all! judging by HiSense's terrible support/access to user upgradeable USB firmware) has the potential for massive software failure rates that we are seeing. Seems all the HiSense Android TV main boards are in very short supply. Many must be dying.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

The refrigerator will not help here, here you need the Freezer Cooler Spray, sometimes it helps to merge the boot with the programmer.

exact... we are not going to make ICE Cream lol... Freezer Cooler Spray... and some user from UK with out writing names over this forum they used Gas lighter to spray the chip lol... it will freeze but with risk of fire if you are smoker lol

Ok I understand. Freeze spray... need to find some

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

The refrigerator will not help here, here you need the Freezer Cooler Spray, sometimes it helps to merge the boot with the programmer.

exact... we are not going to make ICE Cream lol... Freezer Cooler Spray... and some user from UK with out writing names over this forum they used Gas lighter to spray the chip lol... it will freeze but with risk of fire if you are smoker lol

[lotas]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

You mean to freeze by temperature like placing in refrigerator? i have only heard of freeze HDD but not NAND flash (googled and didn't find much)

The refrigerator will not help here, here you need the Freezer Cooler Spray, sometimes it helps to merge the boot with the programmer.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

0.95V_VDDC_CPU are low... since the GPU section of SOC 1.2V_MOD_VTERM in this high present.

Actually measured is ~1V but basically same as 0.95V.

According the 2018 service manual power tree for this exact same SOC

0.95V_VDDC = 4A (digital core = 3.5A, this is probably GPU+Video+TCon pixel?)
0.95V_VDDC_CPU = 1A (This is probably CPU core)
1.2V_MOD_VTERM = 100mA (seems like its not GPU?)

as you mentioned CPU had no post at all... this why break didn't work. but to let us be sure more to check eMMC.. need to freeze it ( real freezing ) then read the log if the error remain.. i will tell emmc are just victim to being dead caused by Soc. LOL

You mean to freeze by temperature like placing in refrigerator? i have only heard of freeze HDD but not NAND flash (googled and didn't find much)

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

0.95V_VDDC_CPU are low... since the GPU section of SOC 1.2V_MOD_VTERM in this high present.

as you mentioned CPU had no post at all... this why break didn't work. but to let us be sure more to check eMMC.. need to freeze it ( real freezing ) then read the log if the error remain.. i will tell emmc are just victim to being dead caused by Soc. LOL

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

well for me its early to judge eMMC dead.
if. Soc ----- eMMC connection failed = eMMC error
if Soc----RAM connection failed = eMMC error too.

i would suggest to use other Software.. this Terminal its sound for me a copy of the Teraterm. so try with it. and MOST important you need to send break command as soon TV powered on to check its response to command or not. let see how come the output

Yes, still motivated to chase the problem but probably wish I had a high speed logic analyzer now

Can't Get Command Line Prompt

used your attached teraterm-4.78. Got same output but unable to get a command prompt. Tried many "enter" key, break (Alt-B), Ctrl-C and many random keys from TV turns on through eMMC command error and reboots. Nothing worked. Perhaps the CPU hasn't booted far enough?


Tested dongle/cable for transmission

Tested my USB serial dongle and cable. Dongle can jumper TX/RX for loop back testing. 3.5mm jack tip/ring has continuity to USB serial dongle RX/TX. Pressing return/keyboard will flash dongle LED. Alt-B will see 0V momentarily on ring section of 3.5mm barrel. But don't have any other devices with 3.5mm serial ports to 100% prove working.

Double Checking Power Tree

Checked all power tree rails and all are present. This board's power tree is nearly identical to 2018 service manual schematic in post #1. Only difference is the 2nd 1V rail to power SOC's non CPU digital logic and DDR core. All inductor and Regulator labels/numbers are identical.

12VS (from PSU obviously has to be present for the rest)

• 3.3V_NORMAL
• 3.3V_STANDBY
• 5V_NORMAL
• 5V_STANDBY

SOC + RAM

• 0.95V_VDDC_CPU (powers the CPU)
• 0.95V_VDDC (power other SOC logic, DDR RAM core)
• 1.5V_DDR (DDR voltage)
• 1.2V_MOD_VTERM (goes to SOC, don't know what this is)

EMMC

• 1.8V_NORMAL
• EMMC_VIO (EMMC IO voltage = 1.8V)
• 3.3V_EMMC (NAND Flash core voltage)

MISC

• 5V_USB
• LCD PMIC didn't not turn on (Require CPU code to trigger, manually triggered on but no benefit since CPU can not continue to boot without bootcode from eMMC)

Pic attached with all power rails labeled.


DMM Measurements near EMMC

• No shorts, All resistors match schematic (2018 schematic in post #1 is identical to this board)
• eMMC CMD line 1.6V DC 0.46V AC so there is some activity and seem to be in correct voltage range.
• eMMC CLK line 0.9V DC 0.8V AC. Seems reasonable?
• eMMC Data0-7 line. All 1.8V DC 0V AC. eMMC datasheet claims all data lines are pulled low by eMMC internal circuit. Don't know if SOC is pulling them high. Only 0 ohm resistor between eMMC and SOC on all 8 data lines.

~200ohm Capacitors

There are capacitors that measures 200ohm across on both 1V rail to the SOC. Since present on both 1V rails, maybe this is normal?

eMMC Command Error

Don't really understand the UARTs eMMC error message. eMMC commands are 6 bits and arguments are 32bits. UART log is XXXX XXXX.

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

well for me its early to judge eMMC dead.
if. Soc ----- eMMC connection failed = eMMC error
if Soc----RAM connection failed = eMMC error too.

i would suggest to use other Software.. this Terminal its sound for me a copy of the Teraterm. so try with it. and MOST important you need to send break command as soon TV powered on to check its response to command or not. let see how come the output

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

eMMC is dead.

Yeah, could very well be the case. Curious what is killing these? Sounds not so uncommon.

I have a Tesla Model S, entertainment system software engineers killed the eMMC by dumping massive log into eMMC. Killed it in about 3-6 years. Was a 8GB (64Gb) eMMC so couldn't handle the massive amount of writes with wear leveling. This HiSense is also smallish 64Gb eMMC. If HiSense firmware engineers constantly use eMMC massively, firmware will gradually get unstable and eventually prevent boot.

if eMMC is dead, then the only solution is desolder, resolder and flash firmware by computer. Probably not worth the trouble/cost for DIYers and professionals.