HiSense 65H6510G no boot

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

we asked you before to freeze the eMMC LOL

[nomoresonys]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Read something on one of the forums where someone bought a mainboard straight from hisense for 115, but shit that's still too high imo even if it is new.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Looks like this model is a match to your mainboard, 65H6570F.

Yes, same board, same OOS and few $$$

[nomoresonys]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Looks like this model is a match to your mainboard, 65H6570F.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

From what I'm seeing, hisense is using the cheapest eMMC and everything else they come across, the built in apps are junk and just shorten the life of eMMC, wondering if just a universal mainboard would be an easier, maybe better solution for some, otherwise looks like you need a programmer and the ability to replace these chips without burning them up or buy them pre-programmed which may prove a tough find but still have to be very careful replacing, a little video of a guy replacing one. He looks pretty competent, but even so he had to go over it again, I can just imagine all the ways this can go wrong for the average do it yourselfer, I'm confident that you can do it but I bet a lot of folks would mess this up somehow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3oUCX2ID0

Thanks for the video. Have a pre-heater but my hot air removal skills seems to take quite a bit longer than the pros in video so more prone to kill parts on removal. In my practice runs, pad lifting seems to be limited to NC pads.

On matching boards, 2021 65R6G (this TV is 2020 65H6510G, a BestBuy special) main board seems close but went through a relayout/relabel of components. Don't know if LCD connector signals are the same. At least both are 68pins. All 12 pixel signal lanes from SOC seems to route to same LCD connector pin area. Can't see a PN on the 65R6G's LCD PMIC to see if matching. WiFi connector shape + pin # different. Anyway, haven't been able to find any clear substitute. This main is RSAG7.820.8831/ROH. OOS everywhere other than a few in Isreal and eastern Europe for $100 and different TV tuner connection than US. But ideally, if a much cheaper and widely available 65R6G main can work for LCD, that'd be the best option for most fixers. It also runs Roku which is one of the best SmartTV UIs.

The 2 other TVs I found with same UART error (EMMC Error CMD0002 0027) are both Androids. I'm guessing a barely interesting to Google Android TV Reference Platform business (before the recent tech layout for speculative and unprofitable businesses) combined with cheap TV brands likely result in naturally poor HW/SW integration/testing thats wearing out these eMMCs as upgrades likely get less and less testing. Don't have much stats, just a guess.

[nomoresonys]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

From what I'm seeing, hisense is using the cheapest eMMC and everything else they come across, the built in apps are junk and just shorten the life of eMMC, wondering if just a universal mainboard would be an easier, maybe better solution for some, otherwise looks like you need a programmer and the ability to replace these chips without burning them up or buy them pre-programmed which may prove a tough find but still have to be very careful replacing, a little video of a guy replacing one. He looks pretty competent, but even so he had to go over it again, I can just imagine all the ways this can go wrong for the average do it yourselfer, I'm confident that you can do it but I bet a lot of folks would mess this up somehow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3oUCX2ID0

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Read more boot info. Update for future reference

Reference Material

• mboot documentation from 2012 ( link )
  
• MSD6886 Service Manual ( link in post #1 mistyped as MSD5886) schematic

Boot Sequence

• Boot sequence is SBoot (Small Bootloader) -> UBoot (Universal Bootloader) -> MBoot (MStar Bootloader) (mboot doc)
• SBoot flow chart shows initializing basic CPU function, init UART, Init MUI (Memory Unit? Interface?), and prepare for UBoot (mboot doc pg 12)
• UBoot inits more HW, load and jump to kernel... (mboot doc pg 22)
• Config Schematic (MSD6886 service manual p51 bottom center, copied below) shows SOC boots from internal ROM then 1 of 3 external storages. My board is set as EMMC.

UART Output

• AC_ON
• MIU0_DQS-OK
• BIST0-OK
• 02-2L-SM-01-20180913
• eMMC Err:CMD0002 0027

This is likely SBoot executing out of SOC internal ROM. BIST is likely testing memory after MUI (DRAM initialization) and 02-2L-SM-01-20180913 is likely SBoot version #

I believe to boot any further, its necessary to change the eMMC to properly respond to eMMC initialization and attempt to fetch UBoot as the next step. An empty eMMC will error of course but slightly further along the boot process.

MSTV_Tool

• MSTV_Tool is a MStar SOC chip tool. Can manipulate all parts of the SOC
• SBoot flowchart shows MSTV_Tool access is enabled before even enabling UART. Downloaded MSTV_Tool ( link ) but unable to connect so thats the next step (app launch but shows sequence of external exception COFB007E during launches)
• According to MSD6886 service manual, need MSTV_Tool to get Device ID, email HiSense to get a password to unlock the ability to flash MBoot onto eMMC
• MBoot then can upgrade TV software via USB

====

Just an update in case anyone has knowledge on these steps.

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Thank you. Just tested again and now have more understanding.

There is no backlight when main is disconnected. However, I did jump 3.45V STB to BSW in post #10 and saw backlight flash briefly through the rear chassis holes.

its big mistake to try use MB step down rail 3.5V to power on the BL. while MB connected

you need to make yours own step down circuit to test PSU as stand alone.

or
you should remove ( clip out the wire of BSW & BRI from socket at PSU side ) then use the STB to power on the BL with MB step downloader STB

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

no reset... mean there are over load on PSU. it could be BL .. it could be the 12V rail when it go high... or the MB step down circuit over load... there are must be reason.... simple answer move load... let the panel always disconnected from T-CON. wifi BT out from circuit... speaker out... to narrow the cause

Thank you. Just tested again and now have more understanding.

• No PSU overload noise if main is unconnected. If main connected, always ~30 overload noise.
• Overload noise occur with LCD/speaker/IR+LED/wifi all disconnected.
• Overload noise occur EXACTLY when UART terminal shows CPU reboots

So I guess overload is just initial brief main board power up power draw condition?

EDIT: when you run the PSU as stand alone as i described before and there quit and BL on then you know where yours eyes should focused.

I don't understand your suggestion.

There is no backlight when main is disconnected. However, I did jump 3.45V STB to BSW in post #10 and saw backlight flash briefly through the rear chassis holes.

I didn't try to turn on backlight permanently because X810 connect (main<->PSU) has ANA and BRI brightness control signals. Schematic shows both are PWM brightness signals. If these remain 0v, backlight may not come on but I don't know this PSU's design. I guess if I jump these to 2V+, backlight will probably turn on?

====

Anyway, we are gradually understanding all the circuit but eMMC is probably dead haha... I will research any way to flash signed mboot without US HiSense support (useless haha)

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

no reset... mean there are over load on PSU. it could be BL .. it could be the 12V rail when it go high... or the MB step down circuit over load... there are must be reason.... simple answer move load... let the panel always disconnected from T-CON. wifi BT out from circuit... speaker out... to narrow the cause

EDIT: when you run the PSU as stand alone as i described before and there quit and BL on then you know where yours eyes should focused.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

so the things are normal.. just to clear what funny Chinese as they like put their own sign label
i will focused on STB which are 0 V when MB out from circuit.. and then read 3.45V at time MB plugged in.

STB Chinese its PWR_ON ( power on.) which there are step_down circuit on MB which take from 12V rail ( 9.42 V ls stand by ) generate 3.5V power on which it send to PSU to power 12V (9.4V stand by ) to high as it should

the STB ( power on which generated with MB step down should be send too to power on the BL circuit. ( this didnt happened because its firmware script ) also what you need:

step downer circuit take out the rail 9.4 ( 12V) to generate 3.5 V feed it to STB... this will make 9.4 high to 12... and feed the 3.5V from yours step down circiut via 1K R to other BSW BRI to turn on the BL.... BRI could it need more R value how much it less the brightness on LED BL will be high... and the reserve wise.

of course this need to do with out main boards in circuit.

Thank you for the explanation! Very helpful. Now I understand why 12v turns into 9.4 without main.

One more question, how does main tell PSU to reset? I can hear faint PSU cap/transformer area squeal when main boot loops without firmware.

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

so the things are normal.. just to clear what funny Chinese as they like put their own sign label
i will focused on STB which are 0 V when MB out from circuit.. and then read 3.45V at time MB plugged in.

STB Chinese its PWR_ON ( power on.) which there are step_down circuit on MB which take from 12V rail ( 9.42 V ls stand by ) generate 3.5V power on which it send to PSU to power 12V (9.4V stand by ) to high as it should

the STB ( power on which generated with MB step down should be send too to power on the BL circuit. ( this didnt happened because its firmware script ) also what you need:

step downer circuit take out the rail 9.4 ( 12V) to generate 3.5 V feed it to STB... this will make 9.4 high to 12... and feed the 3.5V from yours step down circiut via 1K R to other BSW BRI to turn on the BL.... BRI could it need more R value how much it less the brightness on LED BL will be high... and the reserve wise.

of course this need to do with out main boards in circuit.

[nomoresonys]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

It does seem strange how the stby is only there with mainboard connected, is that a new thing they are doing or a fault?

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

okay. let us forget all the post you did before...

can you listed all V you have on the socket with out MB plugged in... and name the pin please

All DC/AC voltage readings stable (Except NC when main is disconnected as noted)

XP810 (Main Disconnected)

NC (0V DC 0.2V AC and keeps dropping towards 0)
ANA (0V DC 0V AC)
18V/12V (20.4 DC 0V AC)
18V/12V (20.4 DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
STB (0V DC 0V AC)
12V (9.42V DC 0.07V AC)
12V (9.42V DC 0.07V AC)

BSW (0V DC 0V AC)
BRI (0V DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
NC (0V DC 0.2V AC and keeps dropping towards 0)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
12V (9.42V DC 0.07V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)

XP810 (Main Connected)

NC (0V DC 0V AC)
ANA (0V DC 0V AC)
18V/12V (20.55 DC 0V AC)
18V/12V (20.55 DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
STB (3.45V DC 0V AC)
12V (12.5V DC 0V AC)
12V (12.5V DC 0V AC)

BSW (0.085V DC 0V AC)
BRI (0.085V DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
NC (0V DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)
12V (12.5V DC 0V AC)
GND (0V DC 0V AC)

DC/AC reads same with LED connected or disconnected.

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Here's a question, does turning the tv completely off, as in turning off surge protection power strip over night, does that wear out the eMMC quicker than leaving the tv in standby with the strip just left on so tv is always in standby when not turned on?

For NAND flash, I think its all dependent on write cycling. Read cycles are not a problem.

There are many possibilities to do software improperly (my background is system software, HW architecture. Developed system with flash memory before) There are lots of caches with different access speeds, retention and wear leveling.

SLC

I don't know if eMMC (or SOC) include SLC (single level cell) which has 100k+ write cycles. Systems use SLC to gather up random writes to a large block to reduce writes to MLC/TLC NAND cells (you can't write single bit NAND cell, its always a block write)

RAM Caching

One would hope video streaming temporal caching is done completely in RAM to avoid killing the flash memory.

Logging. Software are usually written with multiple logging levels including maximum when debugging. Need to put the log in non volatile memory (flash) just in case the system crash. So if software guys forget to drastically reduce logging in normal use, then eMMC gets worn out like my Tesla entertainment system haha.

Anyway, whenever downloading stuff or apps produce some write info. Software developers need to think about 1) how much data 2) how scattered 3) where to write 4) write frequency to NAND flash etc etc.

BTW, this is why Samsung SSDs have been the premium and most reliable historically. They have been using DRAM caching on nVME/SATA SSDs since early days. All the cheap SSDs are DRAMless and rely on wear leveling to survive longevity so they fail with heavy computer usage in just a few years. Some SSDs add SLC as write buffering to reduce MLC/TLC NAND flash wear.

But to answer your question, I don't know unfortunately because it depends so much on actual cache hardware components and software implementation which is invisible. This invisibility is the #1 challenge of embedded software for repair effort.

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

okay. let us forget all the post you did before...

can you listed all V you have on the socket with out MB plugged in... and name the pin please

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

i found my self lost and in wrong again..
after i reread from start.. yours #16 post #5 #7

in #5 sound funny to me either #7 so let me talk on post #16
you have STB 3.4V then why you don't disconnect the MB and power the PWB as stand alone to see if the BL will power on and the 12V rail / 20 stable ??
i know you used tester for LED but tester i don't believe on it...

Have disconnected MB and PWB. 12v rail shows 9v (post #7) and no backlight (post #10)

The fact 12v rail shows 9v and LED doesn't light up with main disconnected is strange to me. But I have no idea how this PSU is suppose to behave.

I did use multi-meter DC and AC mode to check 12v with main connected. 12V DC Is steady and no AC value which is best I can do to check for noise without scope.

Certainly PSU seems strange but would be amazing to allow all proper voltage generation on main (I've checked AC component on all main voltage rails. All clean)

[Diah]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

i found my self lost and in wrong again..
after i reread from start.. yours #16 post #5 #7

in #5 sound funny to me either #7 so let me talk on post #16
you have STB 3.4V then why you don't disconnect the MB and power the PWB as stand alone to see if the BL will power on and the 12V rail / 20 stable ??
i know you used tester for LED but tester i don't believe on it...

[nomoresonys]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

Here's a question, does turning the tv completely off, as in turning off surge protection power strip over night, does that wear out the eMMC quicker than leaving the tv in standby with the strip just left on so tv is always in standby when not turned on?

[howardc64]

Re: HiSense 65H6510G no boot

But the Boot section is still alive, and the User section has collapsed.

I guess you are thinking UART output shows eMMC boot code is retrieved by SOC. Ran the boot code and failed on user partition.

I wonder if this is true. If CMD0002 (post #28)is indeed CMD2 of eMMC spec, then it is basic bus initialization process of eMMC (described in post #28's attached boot PDF file) so I guess before any NAND flash block transfer. But I don't know if UART output of CMD002 is this meaning or eMMC initialization details. I am new to this level of detail on eMMC.

I was guessing BIST maybe performed by first boot code loaded into SOC at manufacturing (Probably there is small embedded flash inside SOC)

This is how the life of eMMC on the programmer shows, and, strangely enough, also Hynix.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...2&postcount=19

Thanks for the link. Some notes on the post's eMMC status

eMMC mode 1-bit makes sense. eMMC spec says all eMMC has to support lowest common denominator 1-bit data mode (instead of parallel 4bit or 8bit mode if have the wider data connection) for compatibility with any eMMC host controller. eMMC Programmer surely use 1-bit mode when starting.

Type A and B memory lifetime code shows it was worn out by wear leveling. So too much writes and used up majority of NAND flash write limits. For a 2015 SONY and 16GB (GBytes) of MLC (multi-level cell) flash. It shows poor software making too much writes to the eMMC. My Tesla entertainment console eMMC died the same way (post #30)



FYI, MLC cell write limit is < 10k while TLC is < 1k! I think all these lower eMMC capacity eMMCs for TVs etc (compared to a computer drive) use MLC (my eMMC says MLC) There is not enough NAND cell to spread out wear leveling to much larger capacity like computer drives (>= 128GB and typically >= 256GB) which can use TLC