Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

[stj]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

just replace anything under 470uf

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Ok. Which one would be the most likely candidates for recapping? I mean, the ones tasked with the 5vsb.

I do not have a multimeter, but I guess I could take the caps out and bring them to a local PC service shop, maybe the guys working there will be kind enough to test them for me.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

No signs of bloating. Can they be silently failing?

Of course they can!
They can loose capacity, the ESR can rise and others like increased leakage.

Bloated caps are a sign of a catastrophic failure however...

So the only way to see if the caps are OK or not is to desolder them (wich damages them a bit) and measure with an ESR meter or something like that.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Update, guys. The SS-400ET will be of no use because it only has one 6-pin PCI-e plug, whereas my GTX 970 requires two of them. Other connectors are accounted for. So I won't be able to test anything with it as I can't connect all the components.

However, out of curiosity, I opened my SS-660KM again. All the Rubycon caps circled in one of the previous pictures are 50V47uF YXG. One NCC near the transformer is 16V220uF KY. Other small caps near the modular output PCB are all Rubycon YXG rated at 50V, one is 10uF, one is 22uF. The four big brown ones are all NCC: two 16V220uF KZE, one 6.3V3300uF KY and one 16V3900uF KZH.

If necessary, I'll mark them on one of the pictures.

No signs of bloating. Can they be silently failing?

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Guys, i think there is definitively something wrong with the standby power becuase this morning I was unable to start the PC with this PSU even with ErP enabled. As soon as I flipped the back switch to position "0", the PSU came to life, only to shutdow again (probably because it discharged and the LEDs on the case remained lit for a secon or two more). Upon switching it back to "I" position, the PC started immediatley and worked fine.

I still did not have spare time to switch to the SS-400ET PSU and see the results. But since this 660KM now behaves the same way regardless of the ErP mode, I gess the BIOS option was some sort of a fluke.

The only available unused caps that I have are Rubycons 16V470uF YXG, then 6.3V100uF, 16V1500uF and 6.3V3300uF all MBZ series. And I have the YK series that I got for my headphones, but they are rated at 85° and are probably not good for the PSU. Governed by Murphy's law, the PSU will probably have caps that I don't have at my disposal.
I will have to re-open the PSU as soon as I grab some time, probably this weekend.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Have you found some capacitors?
What are the results??

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

If it's 300 Watts or more (that is, more than 25A combined for the two rails), you should be okay. You can load Windows too, it's not going to make a big difference. If anything, it would be better, as your GPU will use less power once its drivers load and it enters a reduced power state in Windows.

Thanks. Yes, it has two +12V rails, each rated at 17A. But bellow them is a total power labeled at 360W. That PSU is operational and has Hitachi and OST caps inside. I will swap it tomorrow and check the behaviour.

This evening, however, while reading about low power states that all of you mentioned, I installed an earlier version of 3DMark and ran several tests. These would have awaken the GPU and its fan could be heard. Subsequently, I also heard the 660KM's fan kicking in and I could actually feel the air being pushed through its back grill. I ran the tests for about 10 minutes, and the PC ran stable all the time. I even pushed the "extreme" version of one of the benchmarks just to give it an extra push. While the GPU's air was very hot, almost like a heater blowing the air out from the PC case, SeaSonic exhausted air that was almost at room temperature, not even warm.

Another test: I entered BIOS and disabled ErP, and set the mouse and keyboard actions to turn the PC on, saved the changes, and turned the PC off. I left the PC off for about an hour for it to cool down. Afterwards, strangely, the mouse and keyboard actions turned it on instantly, whereas pressing the Power button had the delay again. Stumped.

Of course, I will not do these tests with the weaker 400W PSU. But if the PC powers on fine with it in 5VSB enabled (no ErP) mode, maybe this 660KM PSU really does have some strange standby issue. I will check tomorrow during daylight as removing and disconnecting the computer case is a bit of a "remove that, position this item" case due to dense space.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I asked about the PSU swap because when I used several online power calculators, they showed that for my setup I needed ~484W of power.

Most online calculators grossly over-esitmate the power you will "need". Very few will actually give you an accurate minimum estimate. Most actually give a "recommended" power rating. That recommended rating often has to do with the fact that PSUs perform most efficiently when ran between 40-60% of their full rated load. So for a system that draws 300W, a 500-600W PSU will be "recommended" by many of these calculators.

But if your PSU has good cooling design and you run your PC idle most of the time, then it doesn't really make sense to follow those recommendations, as PSUs tend to loose efficiency below 20% of their total rated load.

That said, this is probably why the fan on your SS-660KM probably rarely (if ever) kicked in - your PC wasn't really loading the PSU that much.

My CPU is I7 4790 (non-K version, so no overclocking of any onboard components is possible).

Even better. That CPU is rated for 84W TDP - a whooping 40W less than my assumed 125W rating.

So you think that the SS-400ET PSU should be capable of at least providing the PC with the initial signs of life, i.e. instant power on, and BIOS setup? Those would be enough to see if PSU is the problem (as to avoid loading Windows)?

Yes, should be fine indeed. But do double-check the capacity on your 12V rail. If it's 300 Watts or more (that is, more than 25A combined for the two rails), you should be okay. You can load Windows too, it's not going to make a big difference. If anything, it would be better, as your GPU will use less power once its drivers load and it enters a reduced power state in Windows.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thanks, Momaka.

No, no, no gaming, not a chance until I solve this power issue. Although the PC was bought as brand new back in 2015 and capable of easily running most modern titles of the time, I actually never pushed it. The most demaning applications were emulators and recently the neweset editions of Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct games, and some work stuff. But I surelly did not run those demanding ones for hours.
Actually, my PC spends more time powered down than running.

I asked about the PSU swap because when I used several online power calculators, they showed that for my setup I needed ~484W of power.
So you think that the SS-400ET PSU should be capable of at least providing the PC with the initial signs of life, i.e. instant power on, and BIOS setup? Those would be enough to see if PSU is the problem (as to avoid loading Windows)?
Because, once powerd on, the current SS-660KM powers the PC without a hitch (it's the startup it fails at).

No, my GTX 970 is the version with stock speed (no OC, SOC or alike) as I do not like overclocking any component. My CPU is I7 4790 (non-K version, so no overclocking of any onboard components is possible). The whole system works at stock speed, actually.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Also, if the recapping occurs and proves to be a success, can I somehow mod the fan controller to work all the time at some speed, and not to depend on the internal temperature sensor to activate it?

Yes, most likely should be a way to modify the controller. Though if it uses some IC, then the easiest thing would be to add two diodes: one to feed the fan from the 5V rail (so the fan is always turning slow) and one to feed the fan from the fan controller, in case the fan controller wants to turn it faster for whatever reason.

But I guess we can get into the details of this once the PSU is working properly again.

I couldn't find a suitable spare PSU or get one from anybody as most of my friends have PSUs in their cases. I am not sure whether to try with the SS-400ET that I have or not. It has two 12V rails 17A each and I am not sure my GTX 970 card would like that, or the PSU, for that mater. The last I would want is to cause additional damage.

GTX 970 is only 145 Watts TDP (unless you have it overclocked A LOT). So if your CPU is 125W TDP worst case, you're looking at around 270 Watts from the 12V rail. Add 30 Watts for HDD, optical, and fans... so expect around 300 Watts peak from the 12V rail. If your 400W Seasonic PSU supports that much, it should work fine. May run a little warm and possibly not so happy if you throw a 10-hour gaming session at it in hot weather... but other than that, it should be plenty for testing.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Also, if the recapping occurs and proves to be a success, can I somehow mod the fan controller to work all the time at some speed, and not to depend on the internal temperature sensor to activate it? Just to make sure the new/existing caps won't cook again.
I remember seeing on the SS-750KMs a fan switch that would allow the fan to either be on all the time, or on when necessay.

My god, this topic changed from ErP support to PSU troubleshooting. Not that ErP had no impact on the tests, though.

I couldn't find a suitable spare PSU or get one from anybody as most of my friends have PSUs in their cases. I am not sure whether to try with the SS-400ET that I have or not. It has two 12V rails 17A each and I am not sure my GTX 970 card would like that, or the PSU, for that mater. The last I would want is to cause additional damage.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thanks, I'll look into available caps. I might see with TC about ordering from him, but I suspect that shipping cost will be more than the cap set. Which is why I'd try with that eBay seller.

Yes, there were a few more small caps under the modular connectors board. They are all Rubycons. On that board there are sleeweless ones that look like solids. This PSU generally has a lot of caps.

But let's try with the most suspected ones first. The ones already indicated by Quaddro. Please mark other as I have no idea what converter, inductors and lines are.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Concur with Quaddro. Also look for small electrolytics under that input common mode inductor between the power line filter and that main PC board.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Yup, that's true, unfortunately. Semi-fanless mode is such a bullshit feature.

ANd people want that

That doesn't necessarily prove that the caps in the PSU (particularly the 5VSB) are bad, but it does increase their chances.

No, but I've read in Forums so many times about this issue already. Replacing the PSU always helps.
And the description of this issue points to some problems with the +5VSB Circuit.
Its pretty classic failure - one you probably say only happens with Chinese/Taiwanese capacitors...

Thus, that's why I suggest trying another PSU first. If you can get repeatable results, then you can rule out whether the power supply or the motherboard is the issue.

No need for that.

Sadly it seems like a rather common issue with the first and second Seasonic X and P Series PSU with Semi Fanless. You hear about this issue rather often, for whatever reason.

OK. So (all of you), could you mark all the caps on the pictures that you think I should replace around that rail?

Start with the two small black ones below the +5VSB Transformer. Than the 6,3V/3300uF Cap.

Also, it would be great if you could suggest a replacement in terms of brand, but I'll again refer to the beforementioned eBay seller.

Doesn't matter. Should be reasonably low ESR such as Panasonic FM, FR, FS, Nippon CHemicon KYB should be somewhat OK too.
And don't order on ebay but a respectable seller.

However, if possible, choose 12,5mm diametre caps instead. And maybe solder them in floating (like 0,5-1mm above the PCB)

So even the Japanese caps can fail without visible marks, huh? If they were cooked, they surely didn't bulge one bit, let alone leaked.

There is a Document from Nichicon about Capacitor failure modes. Look for it.

But _ALL_ Capacitors can fail without bulging...

Bulging is some kind of catastrophic failure, according to that Nichicon document I mentioned...

I bought this PSU specifically because of its good build and quality caps

The Problem with the "good quality caps" fairy tale is that you don't know (=can't know) if the caps are needed for an acceptable lifetime or not.

It all depends on the enviroment the capacitor is used in. How hot it gets, how much ripple current it can endure and things like that.

A good capacitor can only last if it is used under good conditions.
If it is used under hostile conditions (like high ripple and high temperature), it won't last as long as a shitty/cheap capacitor that is used under great/optimal conditions.
That's the Problem people tend to forget. And some Reviewers also try to push for that semi Fanless garbage...

I hope we will see a "Semi Fanless Fallout" and those PSU will die left and right in a couple of years...

so I could have years of problem-free use, and here it is, just a few months after its warranty expired, it behaves in the course of capacitor replacement.

Yes and in the end you could also have gotten a "worse quality" PSU with Teapo, ltec, Elite or su'scon caps with a great layout so the caps aren't stressed much...
But you don't know that, you can't know that....

Testing the stress of the caps and the 'normal operation condition' is rather hard work and pretty annoying...

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

The fact is that psu is turn on "normally" without erp after heated by hairdryer.
So i doubt it's about motherboard.

Good point, I forgot about that part.
It still doesn't hurt to confirm the results with another PSU. There could always be more than one issue, so it's worth narrowing down.

Okay, i was wrong when i said turn off.
It's not turn off, then how about "almost turn" off because less than 1 w for standby?
I believe somehow this condition (very low wattage consumption) can reset the state of the psu to "zero" and ready to turn on.

It still won't turn OFF the PSU's 5VSB rail.

What Erp/EuP probably does is turn off power to all non-essential devices on the motherboard when in soft-off mode - that means probably wake on LAN/RING/KEYBOARD too. Most likely, it just keeps the PS_ON circuitry alive and everything else OFF to save that kind of power. It's nothing new, though. You could do that on many old PCs through various CMOS settings. They just didn't have a fancy name for a single setting to turn all of these OFF back then.

There's a term "erp compliant" of psu..so both components is communicate.
Power Good signal, PS on, etc is another examples that motherboard and psu is really communicate..

They are, but neither of these can turn OFF the 5VSB. PS_ON is just for the main power (3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V) and PG is to signal to the motherboard that main power is up and ready.

OK. So (all of you), could you mark all the caps on the pictures that you think I should replace around that rail? I ask this as I am not familiar with what rectifiers are and how they look like, so as to not replace/remove the wrong cap.

This picture by Quaddro pretty much shows the type of small capacitors you are looking for.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1507986082
There are three circled, but there may be more (I think there are, but they are not visible on that picture).

For example, in this picture, you can see two black caps to the left of the heatsink and two black ones to the right of that same heatsink:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...7&d=1507983388
They all appear to be Rubycon caps with a "K" vent on top.

Also, it would be great if you could suggest a replacement in terms of brand, but I'll again refer to the beforementioned eBay seller.

Depends on what brand and series they are. You mentioned the Rubycon were YXG series.
For those, you can use... well Rubycon YXG again. Though there are more choices than that, and these are:
Rubycon YXJ, YXG, ZL, ZLJ, ZLH, LZG
Chemicon KY, KYB, KZE, KZH, LXZ, LXY, LXV
Nichicon HE, PA (PW, PS, PM, PJ may also work, though their ESR isn't as low)
Panasonic FC, FK, FR, FM, FS

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

OK. So (all of you), could you mark all the caps on the pictures that you think I should replace around that rail? I ask this as I am not familiar with what rectifiers are and how they look like, so as to not replace/remove the wrong cap.
Also, it would be great if you could suggest a replacement in terms of brand, but I'll again refer to the beforementioned eBay seller.

So even the Japanese caps can fail without visible marks, huh? If they were cooked, they surely didn't bulge one bit, let alone leaked. I bought this PSU specifically because of its good build and quality caps so I could have years of problem-free use, and here it is, just a few months after its warranty expired, it behaves in the course of capacitor replacement. I guess I'll be contacting egekecu again soon. I still haven't received my previous order of caps for my wireless headphones from him.

[Quaddro]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thus, I am thinking you may have a motherboard issue.

The fact is that psu is turn on "normally" without erp after heated by hairdryer.
So i doubt it's about motherboard.

No motherboard can make the 5VSB rail of a PSU turn off

Okay, i was wrong when i said turn off.
It's not turn off, then how about "almost turn" off because less than 1 w for standby?
I believe somehow this condition (very low wattage consumption) can reset the state of the psu to "zero" and ready to turn on.

As far as i know,
ErP/EuP is the standard set by the European Union for power consumption of a system in it's "off" state. The PSU must consume less than 1 watt at this stage.

There's a term "erp compliant" of psu..so both components is communicate.
Power Good signal, PS on, etc is another examples that motherboard and psu is really communicate..

But i agree with you.
Try to use another psu is the easiest way to find the main culprit.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I have only one SS-400ET PSU laying around, but I am uncertain that its 400W power wil be enough for powering all the components. I will do some testing.

Do you have a power-hungry graphics card? Like GTX480, GTX580, GTX670/680, GTX770/780? (Or equivalent Radeon?)
Also, number of mechanical HDDs more than 4?

If not, that 400 Watt power supply will be more than enough. Heck, if all you have is onboard graphics, I could probably power that rig of yours with one of my 250 Watt power supplies.

I don't know why people still think they need a half kW PSU or more just for an i5/i7. Even the old gen i5s and i7's weren't that power hungry. Likewise, AMDs stuff uses just a little more power for their high-end CPUs, but it's still nothing a 300W PSU can't handle, if all you are using is onboard graphics or some low-mid-range GPU in a PC with 1-2 HDDs.

and yes, erp disable this rail, there's no 5vsb while computer turn off.
The same condition while you switch off to 0 the psu.

Wrong.

No motherboard can make the 5VSB rail of a PSU turn off (except for a faulty one with a short-circuit). Think about it, how would that be possible? There is no communication between the PSU and motherboard, so it's not possible for the motherboard to tell the PSU to turn OFF the 5VSB rail. Besides, if that happened, then how would the motherboard turn ON after that? It surely needs power from somewhere for its logic.

The thing is that the PSU has a semi fanless mode. And that means that the heat of the +12V Rectifiers cooks the +5VSB caps.
With active fan Operation the temperature in this area would be much much cooler - loke 20-30K, maybe even more...

Yup, that's true, unfortunately. Semi-fanless mode is such a bullshit feature.

That doesn't necessarily prove that the caps in the PSU (particularly the 5VSB) are bad, but it does increase their chances.

Thus, that's why I suggest trying another PSU first. If you can get repeatable results, then you can rule out whether the power supply or the motherboard is the issue.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Another thing I have tested a few minutes ago. When ErP is enabled, PC powers on normally. There is no power to the USB ports. However, I then disabled the ErP and shut down the PC. I took an older Kingston flash drive which has an activity LED on in. So, while the PC is off, when I plug this flash drive into the front USB 3.0 port, notnig; when I plug it into the adjacent 2.0 port, the drive's LED starts to flash rapidly as if it was doing something in overspeed; when I plug it into the second front 2.0 port (right next to the "flashing one"), nothing happens, the drive is calm. This does not happen when the PC is turned on and all three of the front ports behave normally then.

Yes, that proves what I think is wrong with your PSU.

The thing is that the PSU has a semi fanless mode. And that means that the heat of the +12V Rectifiers cooks the +5VSB caps.
With active fan Operation the temperature in this area would be much much cooler - loke 20-30K, maybe even more...

[Quaddro]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

If the 5V rail in the PSU is somehow unstable due to the failing caps, could this be another sign of it?
Is that 5V line in the PSU also "inactive" during the "ErP-enabled off state"?

All power from psu while the computer turn off, comes from 5vsb rail.
Not 5v rail.
It's different rail.

and yes, erp disable this rail, there's no 5vsb while computer turn off.
The same condition while you switch off to 0 the psu.

I've already heard many seasonic's psu has this problem, have to switch off the psu to 0 before it's turn on.
The supervisor ic fail to reset the state to zero condition while computer shutdown, so it's need to switch off.

Why?
The failure of capacitor in 5vsb line, and/or capacitor near supervisor ic..maybe..