Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

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  • Behemot
    Badcaps Legend
    • Dec 2009
    • 4845
    • CZ

    #1

    Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

    Have anybody here tried feeding PSU with DC? According to theory, it should work without problems, found a few guys here and there mentioning who supposedly tried some types of SMPS on DC output.

    The problem with older/todays cheaper UPSes is that their output has nothing in common with sine wave and PSUs with active boost PFC do not like that at all. But by just rectifying it (and maybe with some bulk capacitor) it should be just fine, no? The input filtering should not care and than there is rectifying bridge anyway. Only drawback from this is that only two diodes in the PSUs bridge would be conducting all the time, but they should handle the stress…
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  • tom66
    EVs Rule
    • Apr 2011
    • 32560
    • UK

    #2
    Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

    I don't see how this is any different to feeding a PSU with a square wave like most non-sine UPS already do. They have bridge rectifiers in them already.
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    • Behemot
      Badcaps Legend
      • Dec 2009
      • 4845
      • CZ

      #3
      Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

      Don't think so. Many of them do "sine wave aproximation" what ends like this

      That is an actual UPS (APC BackUPS 500 VA) with Seasonic S12-II. I have the feeling the X-Bit Labs do this testng with each PSU they review and most of them do not work together with such UPS properly. And their PSU has "iteration aproximation of sinus-wave" which should be "hunchbacked" sinus, not that stuff at this picture and still, some of them almost do not work at all.
      Last edited by Behemot; 09-13-2013, 06:30 AM.
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      • cheapie
        null
        • Jul 2010
        • 849
        • USA

        #4
        Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

        Originally posted by Behemot
        That is an actual UPS (APC BackUPS 500 VA) with Seasonic S12-II.
        That's the exact setup that I have, and everything works fine.

        Comment

        • budm
          Badcaps Legend
          • Feb 2010
          • 40746
          • USA

          #5
          Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

          The PS can take the AC stepped-sine wave from UPS. But you are asking about feeding the PS with DC instead of AC (either pure sine wave or stepped sine wave)? It will not work if the PS uses voltage doubler circuit or if it has PFC Voltage booster circuit, and you do not need PFC if the power source is DC.
          Last edited by budm; 09-13-2013, 12:47 PM.
          Never stop learning
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          • Behemot
            Badcaps Legend
            • Dec 2009
            • 4845
            • CZ

            #6
            Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

            Originally posted by budm
            The PS can take the AC stepped-sine wave from UPS. But you are asking about feeding the PS with DC instead of AC (either pure sine wave or stepped sine wave)? It will not work if the PS uses voltage doubler circuit or if it has PFC Voltage booster circuit, and you do not need PFC if the power source is DC.
            I said active boost PFC, is there anything you don't understand on that? But I do not see why it should not work, the boost circuit already uses DC and nothing but DC: There is bridge rectifier in front of it. You need the PFC because primary side expects 380+ V from boost in there, not 325 V.

            Originally posted by cheapie
            That's the exact setup that I have, and everything works fine.
            What version and what PSU? They made like 10 of them. Just read through X-Bit labs reviews, most of the PSUs do not work over 300 watts.

            Well, I guess I'll have to make my own testing than.
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            • budm
              Badcaps Legend
              • Feb 2010
              • 40746
              • USA

              #7
              Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

              If you look at the PFC booster circuits (it uses pulsing DC 100Hz Euro, 120Hz US, you will not see filter cap AFTER the bridge) you will see why feeding the steady DC and you will understand why it will not work, the filter cap is AFTER the PFC output, not after the main bridge rectifier, and also the Phase sensing circuits. Do some reading.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by budm; 09-13-2013, 04:17 PM.
              Never stop learning
              Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

              Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

              Inverter testing using old CFL:
              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

              Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
              http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

              TV Factory reset codes listing:
              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

              Comment

              • Behemot
                Badcaps Legend
                • Dec 2009
                • 4845
                • CZ

                #8
                Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                I know very well where the capacitor is. Boosting is done through the PFC coil but in material I've read, nobody said it is charging because of rectified sine wave but more like because of switched charging (when transistor is on, coil charges and at the moment of transistor going off, it creates voltage spike, that's how I understand it anyway).
                Last edited by Behemot; 09-13-2013, 04:25 PM.
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                • cheapie
                  null
                  • Jul 2010
                  • 849
                  • USA

                  #9
                  Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                  Originally posted by Behemot
                  What version and what PSU? They made like 10 of them. Just read through X-Bit labs reviews, most of the PSUs do not work over 300 watts.

                  Well, I guess I'll have to make my own testing than.
                  I don't think it's loaded that heavily. It's a Seasonic S12II Bronze 520W, and now that I looked closer, it appears that I actually have a 600VA (APC) UPS, not a 500VA.

                  Comment

                  • Kiriakos GR
                    Banned
                    • May 2012
                    • 940
                    • Greece

                    #10
                    Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                    I have the feeling that at 120V (USA) there is no active PFC PSU.

                    Comment

                    • goontron
                      5000!
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 4108
                      • US

                      #11
                      Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                      i have seen a PSU run on batteries before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf2SK...eature=related
                      Things I've fixed: anything from semis to crappy Chinese $2 radios, and now an IoT Dildo....

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                      Excuse me while i do something dangerous


                      You must have a sad, sad boring life if you hate on people harmlessly enjoying life with an animal costume.

                      Sometimes you need to break shit to fix it.... Thats why my lawnmower doesn't have a deadman switch or engine brake anymore

                      Follow the white rabbit.

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                      • Behemot
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 4845
                        • CZ

                        #12
                        Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                        Originally posted by Kiriakos GR
                        I have the feeling that at 120V (USA) there is no active PFC PSU.
                        All of them are, if marked 90-250 V AC, than they are boosting rectified input to +-380 V DC.

                        Originally posted by goontron
                        i have seen a PSU run on batteries before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf2SK...eature=related
                        Unfortunatelly it is not helping much, that is some OEM Fortron, probably older one with passive PFC.
                        Last edited by Behemot; 09-13-2013, 09:53 PM.
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                        • goontron
                          5000!
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 4108
                          • US

                          #13
                          Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                          Originally posted by Behemot
                          Unfortunatelly it is not helping much, that is some OEM Fortron, probably older one with passive PFC.
                          well here is a schematic for an newer 400 watt ATX12 PSU and i don't see anything before the mains rectifier...
                          Attached Files
                          Things I've fixed: anything from semis to crappy Chinese $2 radios, and now an IoT Dildo....

                          "Dude, this is Wyoming, i hopped on and sent 'er. No fucking around." -- Me

                          Excuse me while i do something dangerous


                          You must have a sad, sad boring life if you hate on people harmlessly enjoying life with an animal costume.

                          Sometimes you need to break shit to fix it.... Thats why my lawnmower doesn't have a deadman switch or engine brake anymore

                          Follow the white rabbit.

                          Comment

                          • Behemot
                            Badcaps Legend
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 4845
                            • CZ

                            #14
                            Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                            This is either no- or passive PFC PSU, it has voltage doubler.
                            Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

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                            • Behemot
                              Badcaps Legend
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 4845
                              • CZ

                              #15
                              Re: Non-sinusoidal UPS+active PFC -> DC feed?

                              It works. Adapter for running active-PFC PSUs on these modified sine-wave UPSs is being developed ATM.
                              Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

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