Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

[mathog]

Gigabyte sells "ultradurable" motherboards like the GA-MA785GM-UD2H. Is this marketing hype or are these really going to last longer than a quality board board made "traditionally"?

What this feature means can be found in the product overview here:

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/...A-MA785GM-UD2H

Scroll down a bit to find this:

GIGABYTE Ultra Durable 3 series motherboards once again lead the motherboard industry for the highest quality and most innovative motherboard design. Featuring the industry's first consumer desktop motherboard design to introduce 2 ounces of copper for both the Power and Ground layers, delivering a dramatically lower system temperature, improved energy efficiency and enhanced stability for overclocking. GIGABYTE Ultra Durable 3 Classic motherboards are equipped with the GIGABYTE Ultra Durable signature features including Japanese Solid Capacitors boasting an operational life time of more than 50,000 hours, Lower RDS(on) MOSFETs (providing lower resistance to reduce power consumption and heat generation) and GIGABYTE patented DualBIOS™ technology (providing dual hardware BIOS protection).
GIGABYTE Ultra Durable 3 Classic motherboards promise to provide the stability, reliability and longevity essential to meet the power needs of high-end processors and other components running today's most demanding applications and games.

Now then, the extra copper isn't going to hurt, and it probably does cool off some of the hotter parts of the board (at the expense of slightly warming other parts). It might make some parts of the board very hard to remove components from. Check here for some more info on the copper layers
and other features:

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/10209/...ech/index.html

The more interesting part is the "Japanese Solid Capacitors". Is this hype or do we really expect these to last much longer than the electrolytics? A 50000 hour component rating sounds great, unless you keep your computers running 24/7 and keep them a long time. I have many machines at work (with lots of electrolytic capacitors on them) happily running that are years past 50000 hours. Of course they live in a machine room and all have been configured for maximum energy savings, which besides keeping them cool, tends to prolong their lives. None of these are Gigabyte boards though - there was a batch of GA-7VKML, but they had swollen caps, blew up, or became erratic before 50K hours had passed.

[mathog]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Asus seems to be at least partially on this bandwagon with their "Xtreme Design" models. Compare to the images of the "M4A785-M" and "M4A785TD-M EVO", for instance, at Newegg. The former is $80, the latter is $90, and the former seems to be mostly electrolytics, the latter all solid caps. Very similar price difference for the two Gigabyte models based on the 785.

Looks like the motherboard makers are essentially giving us the option of spending a little more up front to buy better capacitors. Certainly it's cheaper to put down the $10 than to hassle with the recap.

The question is though, are the solid caps really more durable than a quality electrolytic (assuming the system is adequately cooled)?

[370forlife]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

The question is though, are the solid caps really more durable than a quality electrolytic (assuming the system is adequately cooled)?

Yes, they are especially more tolerant of heat.

[gdement]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

The more interesting part is the "Japanese Solid Capacitors". Is this hype or do we really expect these to last much longer than the electrolytics? A 50000 hour component rating sounds great, unless you keep your computers running 24/7 and keep them a long time.

Those caps are really rated for 2k hrs at 105C, but the endurance increases dramatically with reduced temperature. So Gigabyte is just speculating that they'll run for 50k. That number doesn't come from the cap manufacturer.

I have many machines at work (with lots of electrolytic capacitors on them) happily running that are years past 50000 hours.

Generally speaking, I think that modern motherboards aren't likely to last as long as older boards. As technology (improves?) components become more complicated and have stricter tolerances. Look at all the old 80's PCs that still work - it isn't easy to kill them. As things get faster they also get more sensitive. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it.

Anyway, people's experience here has consistently supported that polymers are more reliable under stress than traditional caps. It's a much bigger issue with heat, so maybe it's not critical for a normal desktop PC, but I'd prefer polymers anyway.


Gigabyte did have a bad caps problem with older boards in that GA-6xx-7xx time frame. Those caps are history though, I don't think they even use them on their cheap (non-UD) boards anymore.

They were smart enough to realize how angry people were getting with these kind of problems, and started marketing this "Ultra Durable" thing. Since then they've been using good caps, among other claims. There's no doubt the marketing is heavy and there's probably hype in there, but as long as they're hyping issues related to reliability, I figure I have a better chance being happy with that company.
At any point in time they might decide to cash in and cheapen the boards, but so far the UD boards have a good reputation. If they start failing rampantly, it would undermine the biggest marketing point they've been using to sell boards in recent years. Their customers would be pissed.
They do have a 3yr warranty, vs 1yr on many other boards, but that's only an indirect indication.
On the downside, I have read complaints about some of their boards being too narrow to mount easily. Smaller boards implies cost cutting..

I've noticed some differences in the VRM cooling on their boards. It might be worth adding an aftermarket heatsink to boards that don't have one installed there. Newegg has/had such a heatsink, I forget which board it was said to fit though.


It's too bad that Supermicro/Tyan don't make AMD boards. As it stands, I think Gigabyte is probably the best for that architecture.

==
I suspect you're asking because of the Fry's ad that started today. We went and bought that combo when they opened and I only saw 3 boards on the shelf at our store.
However, even if you missed it it'll surely get cycled back into another promo in the next few weeks.

[stj]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

It's too bad that Supermicro/Tyan don't make AMD boards. As it stands, I think Gigabyte is probably the best for that architecture.

Tyan make loads of AMD boards - they make the best i'v ever seen.
just too bad it's reflected in the price!
http://www.tyan.com.tw/product_board.aspx



4 x 12core opteron!

[c_hegge]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

I have a Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3L Ultra durable in my system. I am quite happy with it. It's been very stable and relaible. I do, however, think that solid caps are just marketing hype, since by the time a good lytic like an MBZ eventually fails, the system will be well and truely obsolete, unless it is a dell roasting oven SX280 or similar.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Solid caps also have a huge Ripple Rating compared to lytics.
Ripple is how much current you can pass through it without overheating it.

If you pass the same Ripple Current through a lytic as through a solid poly the poly will be operating much further below it's capacity which basically means it will 'age' or 'wear out' slower than the lytic.
-
It's kind of like if you ran two engines at the same power output but one is at 90% capacity and the other at 40% capacity.
.

[stj]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

that's theory,
because in practice they probably de-rated the poly's to save money.

[Scenic]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

all Gigabyte Ultra Durable boards i've seen so far (P965 chipset era up to P45) used UCC/NCC and Fujitsu Polys
never seen one with anything else than those 2..

only on the non-UD/DS boards which still have polys on the CPU VRM (most of the time) but lytics everywhere else.. mostly Sanyo and Nippon Chemicon.. the 16V 470uF sometimes being Sam Young lytics

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Huh?
De-rated specs would mean the caps are better than advertised and would last longer than expected.

Caps ARE de-rated in the data-sheets.
You don't think the 'real' Endurance Lifetime for every size n shape cap in a Series is -actually- exactly the same and always and exact multiple of 1000 [1,000, 2,000, 3,000, ...] do you?
They pick the worst case cap in a series, round down to the next '1000', and use that number for all the caps in the series.
-
They do the same thing with Rpple & ESR but based on the can size in the series.

[seanc]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

As an opinion on the out of the box usability of Gigabyte G41M boards compared to ASUS boards (MATX), Gigabyte provide both a 2 and 3 pin power led connector, longer SATA cables with clips than ASUS and have SMART CPU fan enabled by default (only runs the CPU fan when needed).

Only had two boards fail, one 945 board and one G31M since I've been building machines with them in 3 years, approx 300 machines.

Gigabyte returns system is extremely good. I've not used their new system, but the old one consisted of filling out a spreadsheet with motherboard model, serial number and fault. Stick them in a box (sent quite a few older ones back), they'd go away, get fixed and all come back again with a note of what the issue was.
The 945 board mentioned above apparently had a bad CPU socket, been working fine since. I've not returned the G31M board yet.

Shame (for my work) that the Antec power supplies in some of those systems have started faliling, they're being outlasted by some cheap-ass "Trust 430w" power supplies

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Which model Antec?

[seanc]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Earthwatts 380w. OST caps. Last one I did had a few Teapo randomly placed as well.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Yeah, I expected those Earthwatts to start showing up bad as soon as enough water passed under the bridge.

I've use them [the 500w mostly] now and then but I preemptively re-cap them.

[seanc]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

They're quite nice when they work - interesting when they fail.

[c_hegge]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

all Gigabyte Ultra Durable boards i've seen so far (P965 chipset era up to P45) used UCC/NCC and Fujitsu Polys
never seen one with anything else than those 2..

Mine has SEPC (Sanyo).

[mathog]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Anybody care to estimate how much more lifetime one might expect from an ultra durable or Xtreme design in these environments:

1. a well ventilated case in a temperature controlled office? (Assume the machine is well cared for, not stuffed under a desk and allowed to clog up with dust.)

2. a 2U case in a machine room? (These all monitor fans and temperatures and shut down if anything goes wrong.)

I'm not averse to spending $10 more per board, so long as it actually buys longer working life for the machine.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

Ohhhh,,,, somewhere between zero and 10 years.

Hard to say, that 2U isn't using the same PSU. Is it?

You'll probably never find out.
Most boards last longer than their 'useful life' anyway.
'Useful life' is meaning how long you can go before needing to upgrade for some new feature or software reason. [Intel considers this to be 7 years.]
- Which one lasts longer beyond that doesn't matter much, does it?

I have P2 boards in my 'toy box' from the late 90's that are still going strong.
- Those have all Japanese caps on them. [Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon]

VRM's on newer boards work harder than on older boards but realistically the caps on the rest of the board aren't stressed any more then they were in the Way-Back machine.

With Polymers in the VRM it ~should~ last longer than you want to keep it regardless of what the other caps are.

That said, $10 is pretty cheap insurance to keep your machine room running.
If it's a 1/2 busy shop you'd lose more than that shutting production down to peek inside the case ONE extra time over the machine's life.
.

[mathog]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

MSI has some motherboards with this sort of capacitor too. For instance the MSI P55M-GD41 seems to have all solid capacitors. The ones with "DrMOS" seem to have these caps, as well as the "3-in-1 server class power component, 400% faster than traditional MOSFET Offers excellent energy-saving capability and high-computing performance." Not sure if other boards, without DrMOS do too though.

[mathog]

Re: Opinions on "ultra durable" Gigabyte boards?

How long do you think it will be before we see reports of bad solid caps which turn out to be cheap counterfeits? The components may have changed, but probably not the supply chains, or the business ethics of the people who work in them.