First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

[Tesla]

I have this Intel OEM motherboard. About 1 in 5 boots, it locks up hard and freezes while booting Windows XP. I normally wouldn't bother with it, but it came with a Pentium-4 3.0Ghz Hyper-Threading (almost a dual core) processor.

From: Gateway MDW 500xl Tower PC
Intel MB - D865GLC - Intel i865pe chipset - SATA-I - AGP 3.0 8x
Pentium 4 - 3 GHz (HT) CPU - Northwood - 800mhz FSB - Socket 478
512mb RAM = 2x256mb DDR400 - PC3200 400Mhz DDR CL3 - 4 sockets total (2 free)
Intel Pro 100 NIC (on-board) VEN8086 DEV1050

While checking the processor cooling (which was fine BTW), I noticed that all of the same rated larger caps in a line near the processor socket were bulging on top and leaking. They look like normal electrolytic caps.

I have successfully replaced bad caps on a DVD player and a LCD Monitor (both in the power supplies). On those machines, I just replaced the obviously bad ones and a few others that were close and obviously in the same circuit (by looking at board traces). I used Nichicons from DigiKey.

I am a computer programmer now, but I used to do board level repair many years ago (mostly hole-through, but also some SMT). Now, the board level repair is more of a hobby. I thought this might be a good opportunity to do my first MB.

So, on a MB … do I need to replace ALL the caps (even the small ones scattered around or the ones that look fine) ? I was already planning to replace the bulging and leaking ones near the processor socket, along with others (that look ok) just because they are close and in the same circuit.

Also, what is a good brand of cap to use? I don't think I would solder in used caps (from another board), but on the other hand … I really don't want to put much money into this because as we all know … the whole computer is only worth about $75.

Thanks for operating this board. I am also into fixing and re-purposing computers as a form of recycling and to keep them out of the land-fills. After I get them working, I don't sell them … I just give them away. They only have to promise to use it ... and when finished with it ... give it back or properly recycle it.

[c_hegge]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Replace anything 470uF and higher, bulged or now. Stick with Rubycon, Nichicon, Sanyo, Panasonic or Samxon GD and GC series capacitors for motherboards. You can buy Nichicon and Samxon (and some rubycon sizes) from badcaps.net.

I'd put 1GB RAM in that system and sell it for around $300 or so.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

On that board.... Intel wasn't using non-jap caps then.
Suspects:
HM and HN with date codes from 2001-2004 [most likely suspect, cap factory defect.].
KZG [a bit unusual for that board but you might see them, they can fail without bloating.]
Small 85C [temp] rated caps. [only some boards got 85C, they dry out 'young'.]
- The other caps should be fine if not bloated from heat or a bad PSU.
.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Thanks guys ... really appreciate it. Yes, looks like all jap. caps. to me. Well, Intel and Gateway tried to do it right.

OK, I'm removed the board for a closer look. From what I can tell, the top bulging and leaking is restricted to a bad batch of Nichicons.

Around the processor (I'm guessing the power circuit).
(5) Nichicon (Black/Gold) 820uf-6.3v HN(M) series
- Every single one on the board ... top bulging and some even leaking

(5) 560uf-4v (Brand is just a F in a ground symbol)
- Matched in pairs with the above 820's ... they look fine.

(4) 1200uf-16v KZE
- They look ok also

The rest of the board (except for 3) are smaller (under 470uf) black series Nichicons and Rubycons ... all look fine.

From what you both have said ... even though some of the above look ok, I will replace all 17 (the 560s because they are paired with the bad Nichicons, and the 1200s because they are KZE. To follow CH's advice, also the last larger 3 scattered around the board.

Sound like a good plan?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

The mystery F is a Fujitsu.
If they are polymers [and they probably are] they will be fine.
What color are they?
.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

The mystery F is a Fujitsu.
If they are polymers [and they probably are] they will be fine.
What color are they?
.

Fujitsu ... Thanks. They are yellow with black writing/stripe.

They ARE pretty low and small (about half the size of the larger bad Nichicons), but they have the normal indented venting marks on the top (in a K pattern) ... so I thought they were normal electrolytics. Again, they look fine ... but the pairing with the bad Nichicons threw a red-flag for me.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

The mystery F is a Fujitsu.
If they are polymers [and they probably are] they will be fine.
What color are they?
.

Well, I guess I have to know what they are for sure. If they are polymers and I replace with electrolytics, that would be wrong ... and I would have probably been better off not messing with them at all. I especially need to know about these, but any tips on generally identifying polymers are welcome.

Please see attached. The only thing you can not see in the pic is on the back, it says:
M
3951u

Also, in the pics, you can see a few of the bulging Nichicons 820uf.

[ratdude747]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

the yellow ones are fujitsu polies. like PC said, keep those.

the KZE (maybe) and the bloated nichicon HN need to go bye-bye. replace those.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Ok, so the Fujitsus are polys and they stay (I still don't see how you guys know they are polys).

So, you all just use the cheaper Nichicon HN and HZ series? For my other projects (power supplies) I usually go for something like a HE for a little more.

I guess I gotta watch the base size too (they are really packed in there).

EDIT:

Nevermind ... I found it (why I use HE series in SMPS and you use the others in MBs)

http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/pr...ini/pict_f.htm

[PCBONEZ]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Yes those are the Fujitsu I was thinking of.
They are actually called FPCAP for "Functional Polymer".
Can be considered Polymer.
No need to replace unless bloated which is rare.

HE are several grades lower than HM and HN.
HE ESR is not low enough and the Ripple is too small.

Caps should be replaced with caps that have:
- The same or lower ESR.
- The same or higher Ripple.

Best to worst for ESR goes:
HZ
HN
HM
HD [same as KZE btw.]
HE

HN and HM made from 2001-2004 were defective due to a manufacturing error.
Those made since then don't have the defect and can be used to replace the bad ones.
.

[c_hegge]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

the KZE (maybe) and the bloated nichicon HN need to go bye-bye. replace those.

The KZEs can stay. They aren't problematic like KZG and KZJ

https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=49

those should work.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

The KZEs can stay. They aren't problematic like KZG and KZJ

https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=49

those should work.

RE: KZ(x)
Yes, sorry ... I assumed KZE and KZG were basically the same. What is KZ(x)? Is that a brand?

So, all these look fine and will stay:
KZE
Fujitsu polys
Nichicons 470uf 10v VR (and smaller-lower scattered around)
One lone Rubycon 2200uf 10v MHZ (way down by south-bridge)

We are down to just replacing all the Nichicon 820 HN ... is that right? Which just happen to be all the caps that are bloated and leaking.

If you think I should replace the good looking KZE, just say so ... but it looks like they will have to be Nichicon HE.

[c_hegge]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

KZ(x) are made by Chemi-Con. They are japanese and typically reliable, but have problems with their KZG and KZJ series.

I would leave the KZEs, especially if you can't do better than Nichicon HE. They have a higher ESR and aren't suitable replacments. KZE is the same in specs as Nichicon HD.

replacing the 470uF Nichicon VRs would be advisable, but probably not necessary. They are good caps, but are not 105*C rated and thus they dry out early.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Ok, so:

KZE = Nichicon HD
KZG = Nichicon HM

But Nichicon HZ is the king of the low impendence/low ESR ... so won't they work to replace just about anything? I thought lower ESR was always better. Just asking ... trying to understand.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

I thought lower ESR was always better. Just asking ... trying to understand.

Not always.
Depends on what the circuit the cap is in looks like and does.
-
Low ESR Caps are used primarily to filter out ripple but the cap isn't the only part to the filter, there are also inductors.
[Some mobo caps [and filters] are in parallel with PSU OP filters and also a mobo cap can be in parallel with a cap or caps on the complete opposite end of the board. That complicates figuring out what is going on in a big way.]
-
In an LC filter the frequency the filter is most effective at is based on both the Impedance [Z] of the cap(s) and the Inductance of the coil(s).
[At about 100kHz, which is near the typical Ripple frequency, a cap's Xc and ESL cancel each other out so Z = ESR]
If you change the value of ESR without changing the value of the coil you can 'detune' the filter to be optimal another frequency which means it could be less effective at the actual circuit's Ripple frequency.
Can't know for sure without doing all the math for the -entire- circuit and most people [including me] are too lazy.
It's simply easier to stay near the original value for ESR than to do all that circuit analysis.
-
Going up a grade or two isn't likely to be enough to throw things seriously out of whack but more than that can leave ripple in the DC [due to the filters being less efficient at the ripple frequency] and that can result in an unstable system.
-
I'll explain grades in a later post. Need to revise my old cheat chart.
.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Thanks again for all your help (everyone).

I have ordered exact Nichicon HN replacements for this board. I'll post back later and let you all know how it went.

A Sticky with a cross-reference chart (brands and grade steps) might help MB re-cap newbies (like me) and might help to eliminate some post questions.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Series-Series ESR comparison. [ESR Grade Chart] Revised/Corrected: 2011 July 06.
-
This only shows the common 'good' series that follow the normal pattern for ESR/Ripple.
There are other good series that are hard to place in a simple chart like this because for their ESR their Ripple [in combination] is not consistent with the other series, so not included.
[I would need a whole web page to make an accurate all inclusive chart.]
-
Some caps are 'positioned' based on their Ripple which I'm not going to write out but will note.
Even though I'm not including Ripple numbers a higher grade will always have a ripple the same or more than the next lower grade in the chart.
-
It only shows the 8x20mm and 10x20mm can size ESR values because nearly every series [good and bad brands] has those sizes.
[Best sizes to use to compare grades.]

[Green = 8x20mm][Blue=10x20mm]
-------
-------
HZ, GA __ [.009][.007]
-------
MCZ, HN, KZJ, GC __ [.012][.010-.011]
-------
NRSJ, FJ __ [.016][.013]-Only the 8mm are better than below series.
-------
MBZ, WG, HM, KZG, NRSK, GD, __ [.018-.021][.013]
-------
FM, FR __ [.030][.019-.020] [Placed by Ripple]
-------
ZLH, NRSH, KZM __ [.029][.020] [Placed by Ripple]
-------
ZL, KZE, HD, WX, GK, NRSG __ [.041][.023]
-------
FK, PA __ [.044][.035]
-------
HE, KY, YXG, YXH __ [.069][.046]
-------
FC, PW, FA __ [.065][.052-.060] [Placed by Ripple]
-------
LXZ, LXY, PM, NRSZ, JXA __ [.069-.080][.052-.062] [Placed by Ripple]
-------

Note:
- This chart can not be used as a reference without checking the specs for the specific caps under consideration.
- Because: For some uF values a lower 'grade' cap may have a larger can size which can give it better ESR/Ripple rating than a higher grade cap with the same uF but with a smaller can.
- Within a series: ESR and Ripple are based on the Can Size. The uF and Volts have nothing to do with it.

.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

I'd put 1GB RAM in that system and sell it for around $300 or so.

I found 2 sticks of DDR-333 (in my parts box) and stuck them in the other 2 slots. It seems to work fine and both sets seem to be running in dual-channel mode. The DDR-400 might have slowed a little to DDR-333 speed ... but I'll take 1gb however I can get it. However, I have never mixed RAM speeds like that before (I know better).

XP and MediaPortal really need a minimum of 1gb to run nice. Getting this box up to 1gb for free played a large part in the decision to try to fix it or not.

[Tesla]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Excellent chart.

Add the Maker names, and turn it into a HTML table.

Install in the site's ZenCart. I'm pretty sure you can hard-code the links to query make/model (series) stock ... and query results will change based on current item inventory.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: First Recap - Intel OEM MB from Gateway P4

Yeah, easy, I've been coding HTML since the 90's but this isn't my site.
I'm not sure why they haven't done that. Seems like it would promote sales.
-
Owner seems to consider the forum more of a hobby and references aren't maintained.
Admins here don't even correct old bad info in stickies when new info comes to light.
You can find places where KZG & KZJ are recommended as good caps and it's well known now that they aren't.
Things like that result in confusing people.
Also lots of dead links to manufacturer sites or data sheets.
-
On the other hand most of the regulars here REALLY know their stuff.
If you want to know something about caps, mobos, PSUs, or LCD screens this is THE place to ask.
.