invisible wire short detected.

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  • pentium
    Badcaps Legend
    • Mar 2006
    • 2778
    • Canada

    #1

    invisible wire short detected.

    I got a replacement power cord for my Onyx today and it required me to replace the existing outlet with a 20A twist lock plug (don't worry, the outlet is on a 20A circuit).
    Anyways I played it safe and after I switched the breaker off I checked for power and I was still getting juice (thank god I played it safe). After a little more fiddling I switched the other breaker off that feeds my computer room and the outlet finally had no power. I then went all over the place. Okay, so somewhere between the two breakers and the outlets I had somehow managed to wire the two circuits together (and I had to fix it or else the Onyx would burn the house down). after a bit of investigating I found that if I had only the older 15A breaker on, both circuits (the 15A and the 20A) would be live but if I only had the 20A breaker on the 20A circuit would be live and the 15A circuit would only have 2.3 volts running through it. A but more searching traced it down to that son-of-a-bitch meter I installed a few months back.

    Remember that little metal clip thing?
    Well when it's in place the meter runs and I get my one way short but if the clip is removed the short is gone BUT the meter does not work. What's confusing me is why the voltage is only going one way through that clip (there are NO diodes or relays ANYWHERE in that meter) and why it's doing it in the first place.
    If you recall, we wired the meter up so that the two individual circuits were in a 220V configuration and unless we messed up somewhere there should NOT be any bridging of the circuits (because that would be a fire hazard).

    here is that image of how ther meter is wired up again and in theis image the clop is in the "open"position.
    ^^ In that picture you also see a bit of wire that is coiled up and unused in the upper left corner. I have never figured out what it does.
    Find Nedry!


    Check the Vending machines!!

    <----Computer says I need more beer.
  • Wizard
    Badcaps Legend
    • Mar 2008
    • 2296

    #2
    Re: invisible wire short detected.

    That meter is shot.

    Low phanom voltage is capacitive/magnetically coupling (like a cap and a transformer) from live wire to dead wires. This is MAJOR reasons medical equipment is so expensive because of all the extreme lengths to avoid this capacitive coupling and minimize short circuit hazards.

    Cheers, Wizard

    Comment

    • pentium
      Badcaps Legend
      • Mar 2006
      • 2778
      • Canada

      #3
      Re: invisible wire short detected.

      I'm sorry, could you please dumb that down a bit for me?
      Find Nedry!


      Check the Vending machines!!

      <----Computer says I need more beer.

      Comment

      • Wizard
        Badcaps Legend
        • Mar 2008
        • 2296

        #4
        Re: invisible wire short detected.

        Your house wiring is strung along for many feet, easily 30 feet even more because of circuitioius routes wirings have to take and that is in small house.

        Often wirings are wired in bundles at some length, that will magnetically/capacitive couple to disconnected wiring. Your meter is low impedence that it doesn't load down during measuring because neutral and ground is not disconnected, hot is only disconnectable via fuse or breaker. Get a 1K ohm resistor and short across your meter probes on that disconnected wires. Readings will be almost zero.

        This is how transformers works and signal coupling capacitors is used this way.

        Using a old meter for how much you are using as a poor-man's kill-a-watt? Ditch that defective meter. Get kill-a-watt it will measure small KW in very short time, the meter is used for multi-hour KW measure takes long time to measure.

        Cheers, Wizard

        Comment

        • pentium
          Badcaps Legend
          • Mar 2006
          • 2778
          • Canada

          #5
          Re: invisible wire short detected.

          But I need that meter. It tells my parents how much I have to pay of the monthly bill (an Onyx and Crimson is not cheap to run).
          Find Nedry!


          Check the Vending machines!!

          <----Computer says I need more beer.

          Comment

          • Wizard
            Badcaps Legend
            • Mar 2008
            • 2296

            #6
            Re: invisible wire short detected.

            Then, need to find another meter or get a proper current draw logger like kill-a-watt device.

            Remember kilowatt meters are 2 phase for households, and you only need to use one leg of 2 legs (neutral and hot if you are running 115VAC.) otherwise if the machine needs 2 phase (230VAC), wire up completely.

            Safety first!!

            Cheers, Wizard

            Comment

            • pentium
              Badcaps Legend
              • Mar 2006
              • 2778
              • Canada

              #7
              Re: invisible wire short detected.

              Wait, so if I were to disconnect the neutral and the ground when I open the breaker on one of the two circuits, I would not have this issue?
              That could be done as not only do I have the breakers in the basement but just below the meter I installed two heavy duty cutoff switches (they are both rated for at least 20 amps) and they have two poles with one pole in each being used right now.
              If you are confused, once I have another issue resolved (I have my Onyx running in a state where I don't want to shut it off) I'll take a photo of what I got setup.
              Find Nedry!


              Check the Vending machines!!

              <----Computer says I need more beer.

              Comment

              • pentium
                Badcaps Legend
                • Mar 2006
                • 2778
                • Canada

                #8
                Re: invisible wire short detected.

                Okay, this is how power is routed from the breaker panel in the basement to my room upstairs.
                From the panel downstiars, a 20 amp circuit (marked in yellow ROMEX) and a 15 amp circuit (white ROMEX) feed up to a panel at the far end of my work bench.
                This is the panel in my room with the covers removed and the plastic guard over the cutoff switches removed.
                First, both circuits pass through individual cutoff switches and then the individual hot wires pass through the meter (and at the same time the two different neutral circuits are kept apart). To avoid confusion to myself, neutral lines were white, the 20A hot wire was red and the 15A hot wire is black.
                After passing through the meter the 15A hot, ground and neutral wires go and supply outlets along the underside of my bench and the 20A hot, ground and neutral wires go and feed two 20A twist-lock receptacles which my two deskside computers plug into.
                Now to make the meter work properly in this configuration I had to trick it into thinking that I was feeding 220V through it. What I did was place the 15A breaker downstairs on one of the two hot wires that come into out house (we will call it X) and the 20A breaker was installed on the other hot wire (we will call it Y).
                The only time they ever remotely get bridged together in my setup is at the top coil in th meter (when the little metal clip is on the closed position).
                If I wanted to get myself another meter, I wish myself good luck. BC hydro absolutely hates customers keeping their meters. You can have a mountain of meter boxes but the meters themselves are owned by BC hydro and you have to go to REALLY great lengths to get one (or just steal one from a house that has a grow-op ).
                Find Nedry!


                Check the Vending machines!!

                <----Computer says I need more beer.

                Comment

                • pentium
                  Badcaps Legend
                  • Mar 2006
                  • 2778
                  • Canada

                  #9
                  Re: invisible wire short detected.

                  Okay, I have gone and disassembled the meter and I have found out where that random wire goes to.
                  It turns out that along with the main top coil there is also a much smaller coil underneath it. I have no clue what it was used for. (see the attached photos)

                  Are we positive there is no way to isolate the two circuits and still let the meter run? Would diodes work? Anything?
                  Attached Files
                  Find Nedry!


                  Check the Vending machines!!

                  <----Computer says I need more beer.

                  Comment

                  • Wizard
                    Badcaps Legend
                    • Mar 2008
                    • 2296

                    #10
                    Re: invisible wire short detected.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter

                    That looks like you aren't using that meter properly, and run new cable with 4 wires instead of two cables.
                    red, black (two hots) and neutral (white), green ground. All 4 wires are seperate.

                    That is especially if your meter is 2 phase that requires 4 wires to function properly.

                    the ground and neutral is ONLY and one connected inside the breaker panel. ONLY.

                    Oh, found diagram of how this wattmeter circuit is wired up this way. So you can get it function properly. Oh, disassembling might upset the calibration.

                    http://www.tpub.com/neets/book3/7s.htm

                    Cheers, Wizard
                    Last edited by Wizard; 04-30-2008, 07:24 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Wizard
                      Badcaps Legend
                      • Mar 2008
                      • 2296

                      #11
                      Re: invisible wire short detected.

                      Another diagram:

                      http://themeterguy.com/Theory/watthour_meter.htm

                      Obsverate the polarity of windings, if it have any marks to show. One of coils reversed will make meter stop or make loud buzzing.

                      Cheers, Wizard

                      Comment

                      • pentium
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Mar 2006
                        • 2778
                        • Canada

                        #12
                        Re: invisible wire short detected.

                        Okay, problem fixed.
                        I did as mentioned above as well as I rewired things so that the meter is now before the breakers and not after.
                        Find Nedry!


                        Check the Vending machines!!

                        <----Computer says I need more beer.

                        Comment

                        • Wizard
                          Badcaps Legend
                          • Mar 2008
                          • 2296

                          #13
                          Re: invisible wire short detected.

                          Cool, glad of any help. Cheers, Wizard

                          Comment

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