triac phase control 0-100%

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  • harp
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Jun 2022
    • 598
    • Planet Earth

    #1

    triac phase control 0-100%

    Trying to understand which properties of circuit affect triac phase range, is it possible to control near whole period, or it have some limitations - on net found a couple circuit, that claims almost full control, but in the past I build some simple circuit and remember that it do only half of control over triac?
    Attached Files
  • sam_sam_sam
    Badcaps Legend
    • Jul 2011
    • 6037
    • USA

    #2
    I hope that you are not trying to build up this circuit because you buy them already made
    Here is an example of one type that is used in battery stud welders

    100A Current Spot Welder Machine Time Control Digital Display Controller Board

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/35458182072...Bk9SR868vp77Yw


    Here is another one but this version has a control transformer which the one above dose not have but you have to add one

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/28300956049...1001%26algo%3D

    Here is another type

    10000W SCR Digital Voltage Regulator Speed Control Dimmer Thermostat AC 220V US

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/23506555387...Bk9SR5jq6J_7Yw

    This is is the same type but it does not have a digital display

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/17190706944...Bk9SR5rq6J_7Yw

    I hope this helps help you this type of controller is meant for high transformer applications you can use them for incandescent light bulbs as well but it is over kill for this application
    Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 06-02-2024, 11:44 AM.

    Comment

    • harp
      Badcaps Veteran
      • Jun 2022
      • 598
      • Planet Earth

      #3
      Just something like that, but my question was about control circuit for triac

      Comment

      • harp
        Badcaps Veteran
        • Jun 2022
        • 598
        • Planet Earth

        #4
        Found some interesting information about triac

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjTr7DD2ouE
        TRIACs – The Dirty Details (3/3): Practical Considerations

        Have someone knowngoodworking circuit for full control over triac (idealy 1-99%)

        Comment

        • stj
          Great Sage 齊天大聖
          • Dec 2009
          • 30997
          • Albion

          #5
          there are different triacs that can switch at different points in the cycle.
          it can get anoying when replacing faulty ones!

          Comment

          • harp
            Badcaps Veteran
            • Jun 2022
            • 598
            • Planet Earth

            #6
            What do I looking for? Have you some example?

            Comment

            • stj
              Great Sage 齊天大聖
              • Dec 2009
              • 30997
              • Albion

              #7
              just read the datasheets, they refer to "quadrants" that is the low rising wave, the high rising wave, and the 2 halves as it falls.
              here's some examples
              Attached Files

              Comment

              • sam_sam_sam
                Badcaps Legend
                • Jul 2011
                • 6037
                • USA

                #8
                Originally posted by harp
                Found some interesting information about triac

                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjTr7DD2ouE
                TRIACs – The Dirty Details (3/3): Practical Considerations

                Have someone knowngoodworking circuit for full control over triac (idealy 1-99%)
                Interesting video about how to use them

                Comment

                • harp
                  Badcaps Veteran
                  • Jun 2022
                  • 598
                  • Planet Earth

                  #9
                  Originally posted by stj
                  just read the datasheets, they refer to "quadrants" that is the low rising wave, the high rising wave, and the 2 halves as it falls.
                  here's some examples
                  I look and steirs at datasheet... and nothing... I can not see how to determine what component is "better"... for different point of switching...

                  Anyway, all videos presents control triac in therir narrow midrange or so, I can not clearly see to one circuit that fully start at beginning after zero cross and control cutoff till end.

                  Now I found that switching phase can be control in reverse order also, so it is interesting point to me, it not shock end device so much, but nothing to conclude how circuit look...
                  For control mains transformer primarry windings, is it better (efficient) to triac act normally or in reverse order?
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • stj
                    Great Sage 齊天大聖
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 30997
                    • Albion

                    #10
                    i dont think you can use a simple diac+triac circuit for 0-100% because you need a minimum threshhold to drive it all
                    i think the lower limit is about 5%

                    Comment

                    • sam_sam_sam
                      Badcaps Legend
                      • Jul 2011
                      • 6037
                      • USA

                      #11
                      Plus the fact that I do not think that you can have it all either you do leading edge or trailing edge but do not think you can use the both edges at the same time so if that is the case then you have to decide what uses the most of the sign wave and the most efficient use of it

                      Now to me is how smooth the transition from fully off to fully on the question is how attainable is this process and how difficult is going be built it and what are trade offs going to be this is the question and the question also is can this be done with a transformer being controlled this is what I am interested in and have been for a very long period of time and I have not really found the perfect solution to this question and issue with controlling a transformer

                      This is I have been following this post now I have found a few solutions but you are giving something up the either the transition is not very smooth or you do not get fully off or fully on or it suddenly turns on and it is not very smooth transition and suddenly fully on it is usable but I more interested in something that is smooth transition for the majority of the transition if I have give up fully off and fully on because if I going to use it for battery stud welder this is the consideration that has to be considered for best results

                      This is also has to be be reliable and repeatable and consistent each time to achieve this is the hardest part of this process
                      Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 07-01-2024, 06:20 AM.

                      Comment

                      • sam_sam_sam
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Jul 2011
                        • 6037
                        • USA

                        #12
                        Originally posted by stj
                        i dont think you can use a simple diac+triac circuit for 0-100% because you need a minimum threshhold to drive it all
                        i think the lower limit is about 5%
                        For my application would be fine but the question is what would be the closest fully on is the question now if it is 90 to 95% for fully on great but how is transition from first turning on to almost fully on
                        Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 07-01-2024, 06:19 AM.

                        Comment

                        • stj
                          Great Sage 齊天大聖
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 30997
                          • Albion

                          #13
                          it can be done with a microcontroller monitoring the zero-point but who needs such precision?

                          Comment

                          • sam_sam_sam
                            Badcaps Legend
                            • Jul 2011
                            • 6037
                            • USA

                            #14
                            Originally posted by stj
                            it can be done with a microcontroller monitoring the zero-point but who needs such precision?
                            Because if you use a battery stud welder transformer it not the same as a microwave oven transformer because if use a microwave transformer you can use it with out a transformer controller but if you try this method with a battery stud welder transformer you will trip a 20 amp breaker even a 30 amp breaker I once tried a 50 amp breaker and it tripped that one as well and I had not tried to weld the the tabbing yet

                            Comment

                            • stj
                              Great Sage 齊天大聖
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 30997
                              • Albion

                              #15
                              you need a slower breaker to ignore the inrush current.
                              that was the problem with the old 1st gen welders - a friend had one.
                              the inrush is almost 3 digits so upping the breaker current doesnt help - you have to use a slower one.
                              they sell them for industry for places with big electric motors like metal shops.

                              Comment

                              • harp
                                Badcaps Veteran
                                • Jun 2022
                                • 598
                                • Planet Earth

                                #16
                                I think I have found what I am looking...
                                What is transil?

                                EDIT
                                Ok, TVS diode...
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by harp; 07-02-2024, 05:05 AM.

                                Comment

                                • redwire
                                  Badcaps Legend
                                  • Dec 2010
                                  • 3906
                                  • Canada

                                  #17
                                  This app note is good for what you are trying to do. More can be found in figure AN1003.12 or Teccor App note AN1003

                                  My notes and schematic for eBay/Ali 4,000W power controller after it died - TWICE. Cheap triac, then the pot smoked. It's a good start for a simple circuit.
                                  The hard part is getting good adjustment range, say 50% with the pot at 50% rotation.

                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	eBay power controller schematic.png
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ID:	3300976

                                  Comment

                                  • harp
                                    Badcaps Veteran
                                    • Jun 2022
                                    • 598
                                    • Planet Earth

                                    #18
                                    Nice, this is from 5% to 95%
                                    Attached Files

                                    Comment

                                    • sam_sam_sam
                                      Badcaps Legend
                                      • Jul 2011
                                      • 6037
                                      • USA

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by redwire
                                      This app note is good for what you are trying to do. More can be found in figure AN1003.12 or Teccor App note AN1003
                                      Thank you for sharing this information

                                      Comment

                                      • stj
                                        Great Sage 齊天大聖
                                        • Dec 2009
                                        • 30997
                                        • Albion

                                        #20
                                        i dont think a power controller will help a welder,
                                        you need that current-spike for the welds.

                                        Comment

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