capacitors

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • ryan74
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Oct 2012
    • 471
    • usa

    #1

    capacitors

    im a little confused by all the choices when ordering caps (for a lcd tv power board).
    is the uf and v. the only important part?
    i see amp and ohm ratings, do these matter?
    ripple current?
    since caps only show uf and v. how do i tell what amp or ohms?
    i try to find caps that match uf, v, size, and have 10,000hrs

    this is what i ordered (Panasonic):
    Category Capacitors
    Family Aluminum Capacitors
    Series FR
    Capacitance 2200uF
    Voltage Rating 16V
    Tolerance ±20%
    Lifetime @ Temp. 10000 Hrs @ 105°C
    Operating Temperature -40°C ~ 105°C
    Features General Purpose
    Ripple Current 2.6A
    ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) -
    Impedance 18 mOhm
    Mounting Type Through Hole
    Package / Case Radial, Can
    Size / Dimension 0.492" Dia (12.50mm)
    Height - Seated (Max) 0.787" (20.00mm)
    Lead Spacing 0.197" (5.00mm

    Category Capacitors
    Family Aluminum Capacitors
    Series FR
    Capacitance 1500uF
    Voltage Rating 35V
    Tolerance ±20%
    Lifetime @ Temp. 10000 Hrs @ 105°C
    Operating Temperature -40°C ~ 105°C
    Features General Purpose
    Ripple Current 3.63A
    ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) -
    Impedance 13 mOhm
    Mounting Type Through Hole
    Package / Case Radial, Can
    Size / Dimension 0.492" Dia (12.50mm)
    Height - Seated (Max) 1.181" (30.00mm)
    Lead Spacing 0.197" (5.00mm)
    Last edited by ryan74; 11-03-2012, 11:32 PM.
  • budm
    Badcaps Legend
    • Feb 2010
    • 40746
    • USA

    #2
    Re: capacitors

    OK, the FR or FM Panasonic caps are LOW ESR (in Ohms) type, you will need meter that can read ESR.
    The ripple current and the ESR should be the same or better than the original. Long operating life is also good to have.
    I myself use FM/FR in all my repair for many many many years since I know that the cheap Chinese made caps they use will never be better than PANASONIC.
    The ESR (some time they use 'IMPEDANCE') spec I.E. 18 mOhm = 18 mili-Ohms or 0.018 Ohms.
    Never stop learning
    Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

    Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

    Inverter testing using old CFL:
    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

    Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
    http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

    TV Factory reset codes listing:
    http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

    Comment

    • ryan74
      Badcaps Veteran
      • Oct 2012
      • 471
      • usa

      #3
      Re: capacitors

      my meter is Klein MM1000
      i took a guess when ordering the caps above. i guess i chose well.

      Originally posted by budm
      The ripple current and the ESR should be the same or better than the original.
      I dont know how to check original.
      is there a standard that will always work in tvs as far as ripple current and imp.

      Example: if i need a 1000uf 10v, 1500uf 35v, or a 2200uf 16v and thats all the info i have.
      how do i know im getting the right part? i had to guess on the rest
      Last edited by ryan74; 11-04-2012, 12:26 AM.

      Comment

      • mariushm
        Badcaps Legend
        • May 2011
        • 3799

        #4
        Re: capacitors

        You read what it says on the capacitor, it should say the manufacturer and a 2-3 digit code which is the series, the version of capacitor.

        Then you look for the datasheets for that particular manufacturer and you get the ripple value in mA (thousands of an Amp) and the Impedance (measured at 100kHz), which is sort of like the ESR but not quite the same thing. It's close enough that you can use that value for comparison.
        If the datasheets don't list the Impedance, then those capacitors usually are general purpose, with average impedance value...

        If they're really some obscure capacitors you can't find datasheets for, then you should be a bit conservative when selecting capacitors for replacement (ex use Panasonic FC instead of Panasonic FM)

        The ripple mA should be very close or higher than the ripple of the old capacitors.

        The impedance value should be very close to the impedance of the old capacitors, or a bit below but not too much lower. With impedance it's possible to make the circuits not work quite right, if you over do it... for example, if a capacitor had impedance 0.25 ohm, you should not use capacitors with impedance 0.12 ohm but a 0.17-0.20 ohm would be OK.

        Once you gain experience repairing stuff, you tend to learn what sections of the circuits require very low ESR capacitors and which sections would work with more average capacitors and figure out what would work without searching for the old capacitors datasheets.

        The multimeter you have can only measure capacitance, which in real world doesn't really help you much. A capacitor can still be.. let's say... within +/- 10% of the value on it, but the impedance can be 2-3 times higher than what it should be, and a multimeter doesn't detect that. An LCR meter might do it, but it has to have specific LCR modes, not all do.

        An ESR meter does a totally different measurement (compared to multimeters, not lcr meters) and gives a good indication whether the capacitor is good inside or not, but if you're only looking to repair a single monitor or other electronic device, it's a big investment.
        Last edited by mariushm; 11-04-2012, 12:36 AM.

        Comment

        • ryan74
          Badcaps Veteran
          • Oct 2012
          • 471
          • usa

          #5
          Re: capacitors

          ok so it seems it can be tricky at times.

          the old caps are

          3- capxon 1500uf 35v GF105deg.C p727 vent
          1- capxon 2200uf 16v GF105deg.C p727 vent

          can you tell me if the ones i chose are ok without having to look it up.
          i dont have any data sheets

          i searched by uf/v and temp(-40-105) that narrowed the list alot.
          then hrs, through hole, and radial can.
          then i just chose what i thought looked good.
          Last edited by ryan74; 11-04-2012, 01:00 AM.

          Comment

          • budm
            Badcaps Legend
            • Feb 2010
            • 40746
            • USA

            #6
            Re: capacitors

            Here is the spec for the GF series.
            Attached Files
            Never stop learning
            Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

            Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

            Inverter testing using old CFL:
            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

            Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
            http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

            TV Factory reset codes listing:
            http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

            Comment

            • ryan74
              Badcaps Veteran
              • Oct 2012
              • 471
              • usa

              #7
              Re: capacitors

              http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...613730?cur=USD
              http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...613770?cur=USD
              these were recomended on another post from 2010.
              i dont know if its because im tired and its late but i dont totally get it lol.
              ill look at it again tomorrow.
              thanks for the data sheet

              if i see it right the original cap
              max ripple current is 2780ma(2.78a) for a 1500uf 35wv(44sv)
              2750ma(2.75a) for a 2200uf 16wv(20sv)

              max imp. is .019@+20degC / .044@-10degC for 1500uf 35wv(44sv)
              .022@+20degC / .045@-10degC for 2200uf 16wv(20sv)

              if im right the ripple current should be ok but i dont really get the imp. list.
              i bought caps with 13 and 18imp. if .019 and .022 convert to 19 and 22 imp. im good
              i really dont know if i did it right though
              Last edited by ryan74; 11-04-2012, 01:49 AM.

              Comment

              • ryan74
                Badcaps Veteran
                • Oct 2012
                • 471
                • usa

                #8
                Re: capacitors

                quote:-"The ripple mA should be very close or higher than the ripple of the old capacitors.

                The impedance value should be very close to the impedance of the old capacitors, or a bit below but not too much lower."-


                the imp may be too high and ripple current to low on the 2200uf 16v caps i bought if i read it right. i dont know how far off is acceptable.
                maybe i should order the caps from digikey in reply above unless someone can verify these are fine.
                Last edited by ryan74; 11-04-2012, 02:53 AM.

                Comment

                • mariushm
                  Badcaps Legend
                  • May 2011
                  • 3799

                  #9
                  Re: capacitors


                  3- capxon 1500uf 35v GF105deg.C p727 vent
                  1- capxon 2200uf 16v GF105deg.C p727 vent
                  So it's CapXon GF series.
                  here's an updated datasheet:

                  Go in the datasheet and you get :

                  2200uF 16v : 13x25 (diameter x height) , 2750mA ripple , 0.022 ohm impedance

                  1500uF 35v :

                  version 1 : 13x35 , 3350mA ripple, 0.018 ohm
                  version 2 : 16x31.5, 3600mA ripple, 0.017 ohm

                  How to select the replacement capacitors:

                  1. Go to digikey.com , the Aluminum capacitors section: http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...tors/aluminum/

                  2. Check "in stock", click apply filters.
                  3. Check Mounting Type: Through Hole, click apply filters

                  4. Go to Size/Dimensions and select the diameters that would fit in the capacitor location. Click on the first, then use Ctrl + click to select others, up to your diameter or the maximum room you have on board (ex the capacitor may be 10mm, but you may have 14-15mm room). click apply filters

                  5. Go to Voltage and select your voltage, plus a bit above the voltage your capacitors have. It doesn't hurt to use capacitors rated for higher voltage, and often you find capacitors that are just a bit taller than the lower voltage rated capacitors but have specs closer to what you need. So for example if your capacitor is 35v, select 50v as well.
                  Click apply filters.

                  6. Go to capacity and select your capacity. Click apply filters.

                  7. Sort by Ripple so that capacitors with highest ripple value ar at top.

                  Now you have a small list you can browse through.
                  Browse through the list checking the "Minimum order quantity" and ignore the ones where you have to buy minimums. Also, pay attention if it's "Digireel" or some form that's not "Bulk" or "Cut tape" (CT) - check the page and see if it's also offered in "Bulk" or "CT", you might have to pay for the reel if it's not or something like that.

                  So you go down to about the ripple value your old capacitors have and go up and down around that value looking at the capacitors... and if their impedance value is close enough and if their height is OK (you might have heatsinks above the capacitors so height may be important too)

                  So for 2200uF 16v I would go:

                  in stock, through hole, up to 14mm diameter (your old cap is 13.5, i assume there is room for 14mm) , 16 and 25v, 2200uF
                  sort by ripple
                  and I'd get a page like this:



                  The original specs for this 2200uF 16v are: 2200uF 16v : 13x25 (diameter x height) , 2750mA ripple , 0.022 ohm impedance

                  You can see by the last record in the picture, my ripple value is already below the 2750mA value.

                  Now of course, surely the circuit wasn't design so that the capacitor would be subjected to the maximum ripple all the time, so going as low as 2500mA would probably be fine if you really have no choice, but in this case I have a choice.

                  The first two records look great, much higher ripple value than required, but the impedance may be just a bit too low, compared to 0.022 ohm. If I had little choice, I'd pick these first two, but I have capacitors with slightly more esr below to pick from.

                  So the third record is still 25v rated capacitor (UCC KZE), but being another series it has 0.015 ohm ripple... which is still much lower but in my mind, within acceptable limits to 0.022

                  Panasonic FM 16v is still 0.015 ohm esr, just like KZE, but has less height at 25mm... Your original capacitor had 25mm height but if KZE was cheaper (it is, 0.7$ for 10pcs while for FM you get discount only at 50pcs) and you have 35mm height to work with (no heatsinks above your capacitor), there's no reason you would reject the KZE capacitor.

                  But going down, you start to get almost identical specs, like the KY 25v or Nichicon HE which have 2880mA and 0.020 Ohm
                  Even the KZE 16v below it has closer specs.

                  And even though at ripple it's a bit lower than 2750mA, I would have no problems choosing the Panasonic FR 16v that has 2600mA ripple. It's close enough to be comfortable with the decision, i'm sure the capacitor won't really see that much ripple in its life.

                  See, it was easy.
                  No go back and repeat the process for the 1500uF 35v ... select in stock, through hole, 35 and 50v, up to whatever diameter you can fit on the board, sort by ripple and then pick from what you're left with to get as close as possible to ripple and value.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • ryan74
                    Badcaps Veteran
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 471
                    • usa

                    #10
                    Re: capacitors

                    i searched exactly as you said and i get 3 pages of caps to choose from.
                    i cant get into digikey to cancel order.

                    old caps gf series:
                    2200uF 16v : 13x25 , 2750mA ripple , 0.022 ohm impedance
                    1500uF 35v : 13x35 , 3350mA ripple, 0.018 ohm

                    i ordered:
                    2200uf 16v: 12.5x20, 2.6a, 18Imp - ripple value very close but low.
                    1500uf 35v: 12.5x30 3.63a, 13imp - ripple good, imp good

                    height doesnt matter. only diam...
                    if i understood correct. the replacment i ordered:

                    2200uf cap has 2600ma ripple... a little LOW compared to the original 2750ma
                    (you stated ma should be VERY CLOSE or higher). i assume this is ok.
                    imp is lower(you said VERY CLOSE or lower) so this is good.

                    1500uf cap has 3.63a ripple. good(high) compared to the original 3350ma
                    13imp is lower than replacment 18imp.

                    am i right?(or am i way off on understanding it)
                    i see the 1500uf 35v cap being acceptable replacment for original.
                    i see the 2200uf 16v cap being barely acceptable (due to lower ripple)
                    Last edited by ryan74; 11-04-2012, 07:27 PM.

                    Comment

                    • mariushm
                      Badcaps Legend
                      • May 2011
                      • 3799

                      #11
                      Re: capacitors

                      Yes, you did good.

                      The ripple value is the maximum a capacitor can handle repeatedly over time. It's a value just like the voltage rating, which is the maximum voltage the capacitors will tolerate. It doesn't mean the circuit they capacitor is in will actually work up to those values.

                      A lot of companies use 10v rated capacitors in circuits where there's maximum 5-5.5v, so they could use 6.3v rated capacitors - they do it to keep the impedance low and less often because capacitors rated for higher voltage are often a bit larger and taller, which gives them more lifetime, they handle heat better.

                      If a circuit is well designed, the ripple shouldn't even reach 1500-2000mA in places where there's a 2200uF 16v capacitor, so a few percent over or under when it comes to ripple is really OK.

                      Also keep in mind that the values reported in those datasheets by Chinese manufacturers are often inflated, or the quality of their capacitors varies a bit over time from batch to batch, so it's quite possible those numbers were in reality lower than those listed. So again, no worries if the value of new capacitors is just a bit lower.

                      Comment

                      • ryan74
                        Badcaps Veteran
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 471
                        • usa

                        #12
                        Re: capacitors

                        thanks alot for taking time to teach me rather than just saying yes those will work or linking parts to buy.
                        i was worried about them working based only on brand, uf, voltage, and size.
                        I have a better understanding of caps and how to find proper replacment for them now.
                        im 37, I cant afford college now, but i want to learn component lvl repair. I always appreciate any info to help me along since im just starting.

                        Comment

                        • ryan74
                          Badcaps Veteran
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 471
                          • usa

                          #13
                          Re: capacitors

                          i couldnt find a data sheet so could someone verify these are good replacements.
                          ripple and imp.

                          original capacitor:
                          samwha wb 10v 2200uf
                          Y2A PET

                          replacement:
                          http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...382-ND/2433516

                          the replacement is a little taller but will fit

                          I found the data sheet.
                          Ripple was 2360
                          Imp .025
                          Looks good to me
                          Last edited by ryan74; 11-27-2012, 10:09 PM.

                          Comment

                          • mariushm
                            Badcaps Legend
                            • May 2011
                            • 3799

                            #14
                            Re: capacitors

                            samwha WB is a discontinued series, hence they removed the datasheet.

                            They recommend in official documents to be replaced with their MK series. You can find the MK series in the catalogue here:

                            FR or FM from Panasonic will however be adequate (actually much better than WB) so as long as they fit (check diameter, make sure they have room on board) they'll be a great choice.

                            Comment

                            Related Topics

                            Collapse

                            • ADV
                              Acer Ferrari F-20" monitor display interference and replacement capacitor selection
                              by ADV
                              Good day everybody

                              I hope I'm posting in the right section - I am new to this awesome forum.

                              I have received an ACER Ferrari F-20" LCD Monitor to repair.

                              It produces interference lines on the image displayed and slowly rotates across the whole screen, with respect to the center of the screen. One rotation takes about 4 minutes and the cycle repeats over and over.
                              For some reason the On Screen Display Menu is not affected when switched on with the Menu button.

                              I opened the external 18V power supply and see no bulged capacitors...
                              11-02-2021, 09:32 AM
                            • dragon3x
                              After updating motherboard capacitors, what to do next (Asrock K7VT2, SOLTEK SL-75FRN2L)
                              by dragon3x
                              Hi, I have some 32 bits computer motherboards that need repair, as they fail to
                              power on.

                              Here are some examples :

                              (N.B. "capacitors" indicated here are electrolytic capacitors located in the onboard
                              switching supply area).
                              (N.B. #2 : I could not find a 3300 microF aluminum-polymer with a higher voltage
                              than 6.3 V.)

                              1 - Motherboard #1 : this is an Asrock K7VT2 (socket A) that still works well. To put it on test
                              I replaced capacitors with aluminum-polymer.
                              3300 microF/6.3 V. x 4 replaced by 3300 microF/6.3 V. (KYOCERA...
                              03-21-2025, 02:46 PM
                            • quickname
                              Cyberpower 1500AVR UPS repair
                              by quickname
                              I'd like to start out by thanking this forum for providing the info to be able to repair my 15 year old CP1500AVRLCD UPS. Here is all the info I gathered during my trouble-shooting and re-capping.

                              Like clockwork, I've had to replace the SLA batteries every 4 years. It was about that time and the UPS was acting like it needed new batteries... randomly shutting off with AC present, not being able to charge fully, and poor runtime when AC was removed. So, I replaced the batteries but noticed that it was not charging properly.

                              I decided to verify that the batteries were...
                              11-12-2023, 09:57 AM
                            • sam_sam_sam
                              Panasonic switching power supply daughter board has two 27uf @ 50 volt capacitors which I do not keep in stock
                              by sam_sam_sam
                              I did not have any 27uf @ 50 volt capacitors but one nice thing is that it has enough room for two capacitors in parallel a 22uf and a 4.7uf @ 50 volts 22 plus 4.7 equals 26.7uf which so very close to 27uf I will show some pictures of it sometime tomorrow

                              This is one of the shit est boards I seen in a very long time and it was the daughter board the traces just lifting off the board I had to use the capacitor leads to repair the the traces and the main board is not any better because I had to repair several traces for the daughter board to the main board

                              After all of...
                              07-13-2024, 08:14 PM
                            • chth96
                              Is it no harm to replace with capacitor without ripple current rating?
                              by chth96
                              When I tried to repair LG 29 inch CRT TV, I found that the ESR value of samyoung SMS capacitor(160v 2.2uf), which is very close to D1879 transistor, is 6 ohm.


                              Judging from above ESR Meter Table,I think It is necessary to replace this sms capacitor.So I visited local electronics shop,and I purchased 160v 2.2uf rubycon YK capacitor.
                              But when I browse through rubycon YK datasheet,I found that there is no ripple current rating for 160v 2.2uf specification. But On the contrary, I found 39 mA ripple current rating for 160v 2.2uf SMS capacitor.
                              Rubycon YK DataSheet (b...
                              04-19-2024, 05:19 AM
                            • Loading...
                            • No more items.
                            Working...