Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

[y_not]

Pretty much as the title says.

WHAT FLUX!!! HELP!!

I'm tending toward the no-cleans. Save on chemicals, plus it's just one extra step. You know, assuming I didn't turn the solder area black or something. I'll clean that, I want it to look nice. Whether anyone sees it or not.
I know that's all basically personal preference.
So I have made this a requirement.

But what I'm really struggling with is what level of "Active" rosin/resin/organic to buy. Low, Med, or High.
I'm thinking that since I'm doing re-work and will likely hit some seriously desolder resistant joints, that I should go with Highly active flux.
That's the whole point of flux, is to get rid of the oxides and loosen the junk so that you get pure solder wetting and flow.
So there should be no reason to not go with, say REH0 (resin, high, 0 halide) no-clean. Yeah?

Only thing is, I'm hitting this.

This company makes exactly what I want. REH0 resin. REH1 would also be fine, so long as it's no clean, low residue.

The only problem is.... they're in the UK!! That doesn't help me here.
I can find ZERO suitable replacement for it. I either have to go with a water based resin flux, thus I have to clean it. Or I have to settle for a no-clean low active flux. GRRRR

This is all in regards to liquid flux.
I presume it really doesn't matter much what I use for "Active" level in the solder itself.

Any recommendations, advice?
Am I being too utopian in my desire for REH no-clean flux and I should instead just use REL no-clean flux?

EDIT: PS. I searched and searched through the forum here and didn't find an answer to any of this. Hence me post. AARRRR *Pirate*

[mariushm]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

Seriously ?!

You have a ton of stores in US that sell flux, and you could only find some flux in UK?!

Digikey, Mouser, Farnell (branded as Newark in US), Rs-Components, they all have fluxes.

no clean:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...8400-ND/768491

rosin activated (can keep on board but you should clean with ipa or acetone)

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...1033-ND/949475

newark

no-clean

http://www.newark.com/kester/83-1000...%20Accessories
http://www.newark.com/kester/83-1046...tor/dp/10M8553
http://www.newark.com/loctite/m00449...lux/dp/26H5738

Actually, just go here and check the fluxes: http://www.newark.com/flux

Read the datasheets, you'll find plenty.

Stay away from water soluble fluxes, I suggest using no-clean or low residue rosin, maybe RMA (mildly activated)

[ratdude747]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

Usually No-clean is a good choice, with rosin (sometimes no-clean as well) a decent 2nd.

The others have to be washed off to avoid corrosion and the like... the benefit with aqueous is that it can be removed with water, while the others require alcohol IIRC.

[y_not]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

Seriously ?!

You have a ton of stores in US that sell flux, and you could only find some flux in UK?!

The one I linked to, I simply happened upon via a YT video.
I looked at its specs and was wowed by the fact that it's highly aggressive, has long working times and is no clean, low residue.
Then disappointed to find that it's a no go if you live on the other side of "the pond".

Out of all those links you posted, everything I look at is either ROM/REM/ORM (Mild flux) or ROA(ROL)/REA(REL)/ORA(ORL) - Low, also known as simply "activated" flux.

So yes, I have looked and spent hours at it and can find, as stated in my original post, no "High" activated, no clean flux.

It's not that I'm challenging anyone to find it. It's that I haven't been able to. I haven't given up on it, but why keep wasting time on it when others may have already found what you need and know where to get it, or at least what it is that's available here in the USA.

- Chemtronics is a wash.
- Loctite/MultiCore is a wash.
*Although they do have mild no-clean which is rare here.
- Kester appears to be a wash.
*Their spec sheets are more ambiguous as to the the active level, they contradict themselves. I have a call in to one of their reps here in the Pacific NW.
IE. Look @ pg. 11, type 186 & 1544.
2nd line item for each, respectively, says: RMA & RA
But then contradicts them to the exact opposite of one another by stating on line 7: ROLO & ROMO.
.... So it's mildly activated but low, oh and it's low activated but mild?? GRRR

Stay away from water soluble fluxes, I suggest using no-clean or low residue rosin, maybe RMA (mildly activated)

Why stay away from water soluble fluxes? Most no-clean fluxes are water soluble. IE. They don't need alcohol. At least what I'm finding anyway.

I was honestly seriously considering going with a water based "clean" flux, as I can get a high active type if I go with that. Plus, distilled water is cheap to buy, cheaper than alcohol and less obnoxious. Plus I like the idea of resin based fluxes putting less junk and fumes in the air.
But I see they require 120-150deg water to clean. So I figure I'll use hot tap water to do the cleaning, then follow it up with a distilled water rinse to get off the minerals so it dries spotless.


So that ultimately brings me back to my original question, of a 2 parter.
- That is, how do you all get along using "Active(low)", or "Mild" liquid flux?
- Do you run into any joints that just evade your attempts to desolder them, wherein likely using a highly activated flux would make all the difference? *Or at least that is the theory anyway.

[y_not]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

Usually No-clean is a good choice, with rosin (sometimes no-clean as well) a decent 2nd.

The others have to be washed off to avoid corrosion and the like... the benefit with aqueous is that it can be removed with water, while the others require alcohol IIRC.

I haven't read it yet, but I have seen plenty of these articles, as to this argument over the years.
http://www.assemblymag.com/articles/...clean-no-clean

I have pulled "logicboards" to be politically correct that is, out of the box, slipped them out of the ESD bag and WHAM!! It feels like someone spilled sugary
drinks aaaaallllllll over the bottom of the board. YUCK!!
Tell me that doesn't corrode over time. Do we really know how well it's going to perform in 5 years or 7-8, even 10yrs? Sure, we have accelerated aging tests, but they can't account for all of the variables in the real world. Being life is so unpredictable and all.

Like i said, haven't read it yet, but IIRC from past things I have read on it, that's the gist of it. So just spitballin' here really.

[mariushm]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

Water soluble fluxes are hard to clean and they generally leave a lot of residue.
You may do a clean only to find out after an hour that there's still some residue on the board that only shows up after drying up.

Water soluble fluxes also contain more halides compared to no-clean fluxes and ammonium chlorides which means you should take more precautions when using them, compared to regular fluxes.

You can compare the material safety datasheets just to see the differences

https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...d5806b8169.pdf LOCTITE - HYDRO X20 : http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-loct...-5l/dp/1115470
https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...a097551739.pdf LOCTITE - X3312I : http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-loct...-5l/dp/1115473

Honestly, isopropyl alcohol is what, maybe 5$ for a liter (33 fl. oz)? I paid 2$ for a 500ml (1/2 liter) of 99.6% IPA.
Acetone is also cheap.

Mildly activated rosin fluxes can be easily cleaned with IPA or acetone and they're well known, reliable formulations, tested in time. No clean fluxes also work for most modern stuff.

I don't understand your need for highly active fluxes. Your solder wire or solder paste should already have a decent amount of flux, so you should only have to use liquid flux for rework or for more corroded stuff. (I'll admit I don't know exactly what are your usage patterns so I'm just guessing)

That flux you linked to seems formulated to be used for wave soldering machines, to be used in quantity in baths that produce foam and you have the boards getting dabbed in that foam then moved to the solder wave.

Such fluxes have to be very active because the flux has to do its work fast as the board already warms up to reach a temperature before the solder wave hits the board.

I have a hard time believing that you need such flux to do your work. If you had a wave soldering machine, you wouldn't care about 20-30$ shipping fee cause you'd have to buy a few bottles of that flux.

[y_not]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

Water soluble fluxes are hard to clean and they generally leave a lot of residue.
You may do a clean only to find out after an hour that there's still some residue on the board that only shows up after drying up.

Well that's just no fun and defeats the purpose. How silly of the manuf!!

Water soluble fluxes also contain more halides compared to no-clean fluxes and ammonium chlorides which means you should take more precautions when using them, compared to regular fluxes.

Chlorine and bromine are completely harmless in typical "non industrial" or highly concentrated levels. Both via ingestion & inhalation. I know that because I picked up pool chemistry & ran with it a few years back.
Shoot, the former, we have in our bodies, quite a bit really. You don't mess with pure hypochlorous acid much. YIKES!!

Hallides are simply the classification of various hologon based salts. Like table salt NaCL, lithium salts LiCL (a bipolar medication), as well as many other salts.

Being that they're part of the deoxidation process and they do it soooooo incredibly well, I say stick with 'em. Tell the tree huggers to go eat grass and be quiet. *I can say that because I am a bit of a tree hugger, but not an extremist.
Reminds me of brake-clean, the new "environmentally friendly" junk doesn't clean worth beans! Same /w Cool-Lube for clippers, dog groomers use them, the new "safe" stuff is junk!! It hurts the dog because the dog gets burned /w FLAMING HOT METAL!!! Ever used "safe TSP", or "environmentally friendly" hydrochloric acid, or nearly any other "safe" version of a chemical? IT BLOWS CHUNKS!!
It does for a reason, it's a chemical, it's supposed to be a bit dangerous and thus treated with respect. Use it safe, be safe with it, don't be stupid, don't dump it down storm drains and you'll all be fine & happy.
Now DDT & Napalm are another story. LOL
*Off Soapbox*

I'm not overly concerned about it, most people are probably exposed to more of it when they visit the average improperly managed public pool. LOL

I see that Kester's 97x series & 2120 fluxes are both halide free. Indicated by the "0" at the end. But I don't see them in their pens, so, oh well.

You can compare the material safety datasheets just to see the differences.

Yeah, I'll take a look at more of them. But I'm pretty bored with the datasheets and now just wondering what's best for re-work. Not re-flow, but desoldering Pb free through hole, oxidized buggars. Of course Pb as well.

Honestly, isopropyl alcohol is what, maybe 5$ for a liter (33 fl. oz)? I paid 2$ for a 500ml (1/2 liter) of 99.6% IPA.
Acetone is also cheap.

Yeah, I just hate what it does to your hands and I hate wearing gloves. Eczema doesn't like any of that. LOL
Either way, you do have to fully rinse it with distilled water in order to get all the residues off. The alcohol simply loosens it all, the scrubbing with the brush further. Then you have to get it off of there..... all of it!!
You can use tap, but the final rinse has to be a good one /w distilled, as it's mineral & metal free. So you can get any potential conductive or oxidizable material off of the board, as well as leaving it spot free when it dries. That can also corrode and cause problems from the mineral/salt content.

Mildly activated rosin fluxes can be easily cleaned with IPA or acetone and they're well known, reliable formulations, tested in time. No clean fluxes also work for most modern stuff.

It's looking like I'll just go with RMA or mildly activated resin: ROM.
Probably with some halides too, thank you.
I like to live dangerously, but not stupid.

I don't understand your need for highly active fluxes. Your solder wire or solder paste should already have a decent amount of flux, so you should only have to use liquid flux for rework or for more corroded stuff. (I'll admit I don't know exactly what are your usage patterns so I'm just guessing)

My theory was this.
Many struggle, even with proper tools, to desolder an old through hole joint.
The reason being.... OXIDES!! **Prize for yeee!! :P

I figure most are using this lame no-clean pansy stuff that has a low or worse active acid level. Regardless of what's in their solder. That's just for soldering, not for de-soldering. There's not enough there to get rid of "enough" oxides on a major joint that's old and has been exposed to who knows what.

So I posited that if I get an additional flux in the form of; a pen, gel or squirter, that has maximum oxide toosh kicking power. Then I can beat half the battle, at least.

Well, I didn't think it'd be quite so stinking hard to find. I just figured: "shoot, if the Brits can make it, surely we do?"
*BUZZ* *Eeeennng*.. WRONG!

Oh well, so I tried.... But that doesn't mean this thread is closed for anyone else reading it. Pipe up and let your knowledge be heard, that is if you know of what I'm looking for.
Not to say I'll actually like it or even really need it. But it'd be fun to try just for the sake of experimentation. As you neeeeeever know.

That flux you linked to seems formulated to be used for wave soldering machines, to be used in quantity in baths that produce foam and you have the boards getting dabbed in that foam then moved to the solder wave.

Such fluxes have to be very active because the flux has to do its work fast as the board already warms up to reach a temperature before the solder wave hits the board.

I have a hard time believing that you need such flux to do your work. If you had a wave soldering machine, you wouldn't care about 20-30$ shipping fee cause you'd have to buy a few bottles of that flux.

I don't, no wave solder machine here.
All flux, every single flux I have ever seen is marketed 1st and foremost for use in mass production machines.
Then they market it in pens or squirt bottles, or a gel to everyone else.

That's some really great info you put down though, I learned a lot from it on the heating process and why higher level active fluxes are used, etc...
Thanks!! I appreciate it, I'm always up for learning more.
I may know things and understand the specs, but I'm just starting out in practical application with this stuff. That's why I need yours and everyone else's help.

PS. On pg. 15 of Stannol's catalog they show the elusive P/N for their flux pen. PN: X33S-07i


I googled that and look what I found: https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/64B8043BBD7D3E7A882571870000DCAE/$File/X33F-07i-EN.pdf
It's for the "F" p/n, but in the sheet it also list the "S" p/n in question.
So that's interesting, almost the same wording as what I 1st linked to. Something tells me, despite Multicore/Henkel having no clue, that they're somehow associated. I find evidence of this on the web, but nothing definitive.
Henkel's electronics division did get back to me and said it's an ORL0 solder. Hrmmmm
I think I'll e-mail Stannol and ask what the deal is. I know they're connected, just have to prove it.

PPS. Hopefully this all came out the way I wanted, I got side tracked this morning and had to finish it this afternoon. I'll review it later & edit anything that's wonky.

[randtek]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

I haven't read it yet, but I have seen plenty of these articles, as to this argument over the years.
http://www.assemblymag.com/articles/...clean-no-clean

I have pulled "logicboards" to be politically correct that is, out of the box, slipped them out of the ESD bag and WHAM!! It feels like someone spilled sugary
drinks aaaaallllllll over the bottom of the board. YUCK!!
Tell me that doesn't corrode over time. Do we really know how well it's going to perform in 5 years or 7-8, even 10yrs? Sure, we have accelerated aging tests, but they can't account for all of the variables in the real world. Being life is so unpredictable and all.

Like i said, haven't read it yet, but IIRC from past things I have read on it, that's the gist of it. So just spitballin' here really.

I can absolutely tell you from over 30 years of experience as a technician in the field, that NO, it will not cause corrosion. It will perform fine in 5, or 10 or even 15 years. But be realistic. Today's technology does not NEED that kind of lifetime. The natural progression of technology seems to render most electronic devices obsolete in 10 years. I repair on average 2000-3000 pieces of electronics gear EVERY year, and corrosion of solder is just not a huge problem. So apparently, this ain't rocket science, and manufacturers have a pretty good grasp on the soldering technology. As far as performance, I have always found rosin based fluxes to be far superior to water soluble ones. And I have tried a lot of them.

[y_not]

Re: Flux: Water, No-Clean, RO - H/M/L Active.. OH MY!!

randtech,

It's really awesome to hear this stuff from somebody who actually works in the field, who is actually down there in the trenches getting work done. Instead of someone sitting in a lab with a lab coat on, trying to figure out ways that people can do things better without any actual practical application to it.

Good info, glad to hear it. That's just great!

Just to clarify, your talking about the no clean solders. Yeah?

Can I ask what sort of work you do on boards? So just good old tree rosin is the best stuff huh? No tree alternative or refined resin. Makes sense, like I said in my last post, all too often it's hard to improve upon the original.
Can you tell me, do I need to be worried about finding a really high temp flux, one that'll withstand the high temps needed to remove Pb free through hole or large ground planes? Or should I just ignore that altogether?
Is my reasoning for sticking with halide based stuff good, or no? IE. Works better than the halide free stuff.