My new "Blue" ESR tester

[twbranch]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Hell this whole damn post is going nowhere because you refuse to give any basis on your argument.

As far as I am concerned you are a fake!

Google returned nothing!!!!

[budm]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

http://www.ittsb.eu/forum/index.php?topic=41.0

[twbranch]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

What does LCR have to do with ESR?

[tom66]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Many LCR meters can measure C with R in series, allowing them to measure ESR too.

[budm]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Here is the manual:

[Kiriakos GR]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

I am coming with the suggestion which is twbranch to start a new topic about the latest generation of LCR meters, so to have our own space for a healthy conversation.

The arrival of the DER EE DE-5000 will take some time, and the plan is to be compared with the Agilent.

Gentlemen its time to move on in a productive manner.
I am out of this topic.

Regards .

[twbranch]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Better late than never!

[budm]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Yep, Time to move on and collect more knowledges from everyone here, it is a better use of our brains and energy. We are all agree to dis-agree and leave it at that, no hurt feelings, no enemies here. We are all here to learn. I already hear too much garbages before the election next month.

[MDOC]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

I decided to give another engineering review of the "Blue" ESR meter in addition to the one I gave earlier in this thread, but this time, it's a mechanical design review. It needs addressing, because I said in the previous oscilloscope review that the battery is hard to remove from the meter battery compartment. I figured out the best way to do this, so I'm documenting both this battery-removal method and the reason why it's so hard to get the sucker out of bed.


Above: a shot of the meter battery compartment turned right side up to let the battery fall out. You can see scratch marks on the battery itself from a pick I used to try to get the battery out.


Above: meter turned upside down to show the ledges on which the door rests when you slide it in. These are the ledges preventing the battery from free-falling out in the previous picture.


Above: For lack of a better name, I called this door tab the "ledge catch." This door tab is the reason for the clearance between the battery and the ledge. See the next picture.


This shot shows why the battery wires had to be shoved from underneath the battery to give the clearance indicated. Even with the wires out of the way, the battery did not rattle loudly inside the compartment with the door cover closed. (It did rattle, but quietly.) It's a nice snug fit, but at a rather stiff price.


Above: This shot shows the battery clip wires shoved out from underneath the battery to give the required clearance between battery and ledge.


Above: This 90-degree angled pick was required to force the battery out of the compartment. It's not easy, but there is a way to do it. You can, of course, elect to just remove the 4 screws and disassemble the case to remove the battery, which would be much easier. And if you have only a straight pick instead of an angled one, you can gave it a try.


Forcing the pick underneath the ledge between the battery end and the compartment wall. Once that's done, twist the pick CCW so it moves the battery end upwards to slide the end out past the ledge, while leveraging at the same time to clear the ledge.


Above: success. Note that the battery doesn't fall back in. This is, again, because of the ledge. To put it back in, you must push (but requiring only a slight push) the battery end back in with your thumb.


Above: a shot of the battery clip on the other end of the battery. Note the damage on the clip. This is from previous attempts to remove the battery by leveraging the other end of the battery. The only result is the damage shown, and of course the battery stayed in. Also, note the "bulge" at the top of this clip. This is caused by a wire inside the plastic insulator. If this wire was somehow to be shoved aside, the bulge would flatten, and thus make it easier to get the battery out of the compartment. Or so my thinking goes. I wasn't able to shove the wire aside.


Above: The AA battery clip depressions are on both sides of the battery compartment. Note the damage to the clip in this shot perspective, showing why leveraging this end of the battery out with the angled pick is not a good idea.


Above: Dead give-away showing the meter battery compartment is designed to house 2 AA batteries, not a 9V battery. This PDF is from Hammond Manufacturing, the company that designed the handheld case.

I could have shown you this picture from the outset, but this was the sequence of my evaluation. First, I tried to find the best (and easy!) way to remove the battery without taking the case apart. Seeing it wasn't that easy, I wanted to know why, and I found out.

Of course, the easiest way remains just taking the case apart to remove the battery. That would be my forced assessment.

[Bob Parker]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Hi everyone (except the 5 Experts in my ignore list). I think it's only fair that I be allowed to respond to the preceding post regarding the battery compartment in the Blue ESR meter.

The case is a 1553D-BAT which is manufactured by Hammond as you already know. If you go to the 1553D-BAT page on the Hammond website (at http://www.hammondmfg.com/1553colors.htm ), you'll see this:

Note that it clearly states that the battery compartment takes either two AA batteries or one 9V (PP3) battery (I put the red box around that part).


If you'd care to look closely at the Hammond case information in the preceding post, you'll notice that it mentions the 9V battery adapter. Here it is again, with that part enlarged:



I'm trying to unpack after moving houses, but I took time out to take a few photos of my Blue ESR meter. With the meter case on its edge and with an Ultracell 9V battery installed this way around, the battery tends to fall out of the compartment under its own weight.
It's not tending to jam in place at all.


Here's the same thing, but with an Eveready Gold 9V battery: .
It also wants to freely fall out of the compartment under its own weight.


I install the batteries this way around with the wires underneath them: .
When I want to get the battery out, I take the non-terminal end out first as in the above photos. Yes, if I try to pull out the terminal end complete with the connector ("adapter") first, it's very hard to get the battery out.


I doubt that I'll be believed, but this is the first time I've ever had a complaint about difficulty with getting the battery out of a Blue ESR meter. All I can think of is that Enercell 9V alkaline batteries must be bigger than other brands.

Now I'll get back to my unpacking. Thanks for your attention.

[MDOC]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Hi, Bob--

Let me say from the outset that you are correct in your conclusion that the battery is bigger.

However, the conclusion is incomplete, but the issue was finally resolved. Here's all the pix:


When I saw your response about battery size, I compared the Enercell battery with one of my Duracell batteries (just purchased a couple of days ago). As this pic shows, the Enercell is actually about a couple of millimeters taller than the Duracell. This, coupled with the wire bulge in the cell connector, is the reason for the difficulty. (BTW, as I write this, I noticed the Enercell is also thicker than the Duracell by a millimeter or two. The Duracell size would possibly mitigate the clearance problem I addressed earlier.)


But, without dealing with the cell connector, the battery still would not fall out, even while shaking the meter and banging it on the desk.


Taking the battery out and examining the bulging cell connector (as in the previous mechanical exam). (Yes, I had to use my angled pick to get it out, as indicated by the scratch on the Duracell but it was better and easier than removing the bigger Enercell.)


With a straight pick, I shoved aside the wire inside the insulated connector, away from the terminals.


With the batteries back in the compartment, finally, the Duracell began falling out, consistently.

Conclusion:
The battery removal issue was caused by not just the size of the battery, but also the bulge inside the insulated cell connector. A few millimeters matter a lot when it comes to tight spaces.

While it may be possible that some sold meters may not have this problem even at the outset, this mechanical design deficiency actually occurred even with the Duracell battery and, in my opinion, still must be dealt with.

So, if the battery clip could somehow be made to be slimmer, this would at least mitigate the problem. Use a film circuit with terminals or something with wires attached at the end of it instead of bringing it inside the insulation over the terminals, that would be my suggestion.

[MDOC]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

As an afterthought, I think that the shoved wire inside the insulation cell connector provided the fulcrum point on which the battery swung out of the compartment. It needed to be pushed to the side nearest the bottom of the compartment when the battery is inside it.

[mariushm]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

A better parts selection would have avoided this issue. Well, it's not really an "issue", some people may actually prefer a "snug fit" not having the battery rattle inside.

For example using this instead: http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...235K-ND/303806



PS. The battery standard size is H: 48.5 L: 26.5 W: 17.5 .. you might find out both are within standard.

[MDOC]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

PS. The battery standard size is H: 48.5 L: 26.5 W: 17.5 .. you might find out both are within standard.

Thanks for the idea. As for the size, both manufacturer batteries may actually fall within the (as yet undefined!) limits of battery size, but one is actually bigger than the other by about a couple of millimeters in more than one dimension.

The meter now has a Duracell installed, it rattles slightly, but it's not a problem. It fits snugly enough and is removeable. With the bigger battery installed, it rattled slightly, too.

[MDOC]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

I installed the old Enercell battery in my Ring Tester box (another kit from Anetek). The battery clip is thinner, and the battery blunt end falls out but not as readily as the ESR meter with Duracell in it. At times the Enercell didn't fall out and stayed behind the ledge.

I removed the battery and installed the Duracell in its place. It fell out repeatedly without fail. And just by eye alone, one could see that the Enercell is more rounded (as if expanded) than Duracell. Duracell is more squarish and right-angled.

I'm not making another issue out of it, but just wanted to show that even a different manufacturer battery can sometimes be a bit problematic under tight fit situations.

[LDSisHere]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

It has been about a month and a half since I started this thread and I must say I am surprised by the results. MDOC I appreciate your analysis of the Blue ESR tester or at least what I could understand of it. I have not had to change my battery so I do not know if mine will be a problem but if it is I now have some ideas on how to deal with it.

I originally imagined that this meter would be finding the majority of the problems with the electronic devices I was attempting to repair. Before I bought this meter I was always wondering if the reason a device was not working was due to capacitors that visually looked good and tested good with a capacitance tester. What I have come to discover since is that the majority of my problems were not capacitors but usually something else entirely different or if was the capacitors I did not need an ESR tester to figure it out. It was not the result I was expecting, but I am not disappointed with my purchase in the least. What it did do, was prevent me from wasting time and money changing capacitors that were not a problem in the first place so I could focus on finding the real source of my problem(s).

I did have one case where it was the electrical divining rod that I hoped it would be originally. I was able to get a free monitor working in just minutes by using my Blue ESR tester to pinpoint the problem capacitor while it was still in the circuit. I was ecstatic, when after replacing a single capacitor the monitor started working again.

I would recommend this meter to anyone that asked me about it. If something catastrophic happened to my meter today, I would not hesitate buying another one and I would not waste my time looking at alternatives. If your opinion on this differs, good for you, but it will not change my mind on the subject. I would be lost without this meter now, and I would not want to contemplate electronic repairs without it. Hopefully in the future I can add its' brother, the Blue ring tester, to my list of tools also.

Thanks for your work Bob, I really appreciate it if some others around here do not.

[Bob Parker]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

It has been about a month and a half since I started this thread and I must say I am surprised by the results....

...I did have one case where it was the electrical divining rod that I hoped it would be originally....

...Thanks for your work Bob, I really appreciate it if some others around here do not.

Hi again,

Yes, this thread certainly went through some changes.

As I keep telling people, the Blue ESR meter is a repackaged version of the original Dick Smith Electronics ESR meter which I originally designed way back in 1995 for my own use when I was doing mostly consumer electronics repairs. All it was ever meant to do was measure a single parameter of electrolytic capacitors to make it easier for me to understand the cause of the problem in front of me.

When my design went public, I assumed that the only people who'd want an ESR meter would be qualified technicians but I was very mistaken. A kind-of 'legend' has built up around ESR meters (not just the one I designed) as though they're some kind of magical device which will identify the cause of all electronic faults. I've been horrified that a large number of hobbyists with almost no knowledge of electrical theory and often no real idea of what ESR actually is or its implications have been buying them (and commenting on them ).

The sad fact is that faults in electronic equipment can be caused by almost anything. Defective electrolytic capacitors are only one possible cause. Unfortunately an ESR meter or a multimeter or an oscilloscope can't replace a solid understanding of electrical theory, and experience.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your positive comments. Especially after having my design rubbished by a few individuals who are now in my ignore list, I appreciate what you said and it's nice to know that the Blue ESR meter directly identified the cause of at least one fault for you.

Getting back to the issue of the battery compartment, I agree with MDOC that the compartment is simply not quite big enough. It should be possible to easily install and remove the battery even if it's slightly oversized and/or the connector is unusually thick. The problem is that Hammond wouldn't be likely to get new moulds made for their cases and adjust all their documentation unless they thought it was a very serious problem.

[twbranch]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

Never really noticed but I just checked. Mine is snug and lil tough to remove but I have had that problem with other devices with 9V batteries.

[MDOC]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

It has been about a month and a half since I started this thread and I must say I am surprised by the results. MDOC I appreciate your analysis of the Blue ESR tester or at least what I could understand of it. I have not had to change my battery so I do not know if mine will be a problem but if it is I now have some ideas on how to deal with it.

Thanks for your work Bob, I really appreciate it if some others around here do not.

Thanks for your comments. It's possible you may not have a problem as pronounced as I did, but if you do, try a Duracell battery.

And I thank Bob for redesigning the meter that has better ease of assembly along with included circuit design improvements. And using a microprocessor as part of the circuit design that effectively reads a cap's resistive element is ingenious...

(which I'd read earlier about--that the microprocessor chip design is 20 years old. So what? My Tektronix scope is 20 years old or more. Are you going to discount my work because my scope is old? People still use tube guitar amplifiers these days. There are new chip designs replacing old ones, but discontinued things still work as designed. Selah.)

...ingenious, especially considering the fact that, barring a couple of known limitations, allows the testing of caps in the PCB circuit, and the fact that it can measure the cap's effective resistance without the effects of capacitive reactance.

What should have been included with my scope analysis at https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...4&postcount=46 is this:
The meter frequency, as I said, is 2kHz. That's for a reason. The frequency duty cycle is 1.6% (8uS on, 492uS off). An 8uS pulse across the cap is too short a charge-time period for any size cap (even 1uF) to significantly affect the meter reading. This effectively eliminates the capacitive reactance from the measurement. So when a pulse occurs, any voltage drop that develops across the cap is the result of the cap's inherent effective resistance (ESR) instead of capacitive reactance. There has to be resistance for a voltage drop to occur. If there is no resistance, there is no voltage drop.

The cap's DC-blocking attribute necessitates an AC component for testing, plus a discharge period for draining off any residual charge that does occur. Comparatively speaking, the 492uS discharge time seems an overkill, but not when you consider that larger-value caps require more time to discharge than smaller ones. And anyway, that's not really important.

With the test leads open, the pulses are high at almost 5V. When that happens, the resistance is infinity and the meter display shows the "-" minus sign. When a cap is inserted between the leads, it's no longer infinity and the cap's ESR is sensed because of the effective resistive element present in all caps.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the meter is auto ranging, but that's readily apparent from the short description I gave in the analysis. (But maybe not, for some people.)

One thing I kept quiet about until now:
Under one pix in my analysis, I mentioned a meter reading of 15.2 ohms ESR. That's actually a typo. I saw this the next day after I posted the analysis, too late for corrective editing. But I waited to see if anybody noticed it. (Hint: The meter display has only 2 digits, not 3 --sorry.) So, nobody raised any notice about it--pretty telling, maybe.

I don't remember the actual reading now, but I believe the correct reading is 5.2 ohms ESR. But I do remember being tired, and that's probably why the typo.

[Bob Parker]

Re: My new "Blue" ESR tester

The meter frequency, as I said, is 2kHz. That's for a reason. The frequency duty cycle is 1.6% (8uS on, 492uS off). An 8uS pulse across the cap is too short a charge-time period for any size cap (even 1uF) to significantly affect the meter reading.

Comparatively speaking, the 492uS discharge time seems an overkill, but not when you consider that larger-value caps require more time to discharge than smaller ones.

With the test leads open, the pulses are high at almost 5V.

Hi again,
Just a couple of clarifications. Because the meter uses a pulsed measurement method, the 2kHz pulse repetition frequency isn't very significant. It's that frequency because of the mathematics of how it does its measurements, based on the charge rate of C10.

The microcontroller is actually sampling the amplified voltage drop of the capacitor being tested, about 3us after the start of each pulse. The rest of the 8us is taken up with other operations inside the microcontroller. Yes the 492us is very long compared to the measurement pulses. Again it's all to do with the mathematics of how it makes each reading.

Actually the open-circuit voltage at the test leads is about 0.5V because of protection diode D3. The mathematics involved ensure that the voltage at the test leads is no more than 100mV for an on-scale reading. If the capacitor's ESR is high enough to cause the voltage to increase to the point where a diode conducts, the meter's already reading "- " so it doesn't matter.

I hope this has explained a few things.