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Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

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    Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

    As some of you may remember, I have been piecing together parts to build a project system for headphone listening. The idea is to recap the PSU, the Motherboard and the Sound Blaster 16 with low impedance, high ripple capacitors in an attempt to achieve better all-around sound.

    Headphones being used: Sony MDR-V700
    (note: This already sounds much better than running them off of the SbLive! in my main system! Any attempt at boosting bass on the SbLive! will distort heavily and there is no real power behind the music. Of course, the SbLive! is not supposed to utilize anything below 32-Ohms. With the SB16, the music is full and powerful. There are 6 notches above the bottom in WinXP volume control; I can turn Master and Wave up to only the first notch and it is as loud as I will ever want to listen. I am unclear on the impedance rating of headphones. If the onboard OpAmp looks at my 24-Ohm headphones as two 12-Ohm loads, then combined with the 9V regulated voltage supply, the power output should be nearly 1W or 1,000 milliwatts maximum. If it is seeing 24-Ohms on both sides than I believe the output should be between 200-300mW, IIRC.

    --Progress--

    Antec PP-303X:
    Fully recapped with Samxon GC and GD line capacitors from BadCaps.net where possible. Anything too small capacitance-wise was replaced with Panasonic FM or FC line capacitors from Digi-Key. The large 200V mains were replaced with Panasonic TS-ED capacitors, also from Digi-Key. (Hey BigPope, I sure would like to try those 200V Samxon caps you were talking about.)

    Abit BH6:
    Has not been done, yet.

    +Sound Blaster 16+ (CT2770):
    For the sake of a refresh all necessary capacitors will be replaced with Panasonic FM or FC line capacitors.

    1) C18, C132, C86 and C95 replaced. Digi-Key P# P11212. These are the four initial filter caps for the Voltage supply rails of the ISA bus. No obvious change.

    2) C68, C79, C104 and C105 replaced. Digi-Key P# P11212. These four filter caps are tied to the rails of the two on-board voltage regulators. In my opinion, bass was improved.

    3) C87 replaced. Digi-Key P# P12924. This is the Supply Voltage Rejection capacitor and reduces ripple. Some of the hiss in the background seems to have subsided and the music sounds overall smoother.

    4) C89 and C99 replaced. Digi-Key P# P12923. These are the Feedback capacitors. (also referred to as Inverting Input DC Decoupling capacitors) I'm uncertain whether there was a change. The music sounds as if it may have a bit more power behind it. According to the datasheet, this capacitors can affect the low frequency cut-off. It calls for a 100uF capacitor, but Creative Labs used a 47uF capacitor. I may rectify this, later.

    5) C83 and C? replaced. Digi-Key P# P12924. These are the Bootstrap capacitors. excerpt from datasheet: "The bootstrap connection allows to increase the output swing. The suggested value for the bootstrap capacitors (100uF) avoids a reduction of the output signal at low frequencies and low supply voltages." I cannot say whether I hear a difference or not, but this is still an important place to apply good quality capacitors. Logically, it would seem that this becomes more of a factor as you increase volume and more power is required. This would likely be a real issue if you were stressing the circuit.

    6) C93 and C103 replaced. Digi-Key P# P12376. These are the Output DC Decoupling Capacitors. Their capacitance affects the low frequency cut-off. At 470uF, if I am running 12-Ohms the cut-off would be 28Hz. If I am running 24-Ohms the cut-off would be 14Hz. I did not change values, but very low-frequency performance HAS improved. Also, I noticed some details in the various areas of the frequency range in the tracks I have been listening to that I did not notice before. Again, they are much better caps than the originals and they are fresh. These capacitors are also important if you are using headphones as they block DC which would otherwise damage your headphones. Ideally, for best quality they should be non-polarized, but for the moment, I wanted to keep the capacitors the same diameter. (revised these comments after further listening) Maybe I should have done this first; maybe it would have allowed me to more easily noticed improvements from replacing other caps. doh!

    7) C88 and C98 + C107 and C105 replaced. These are the Input DC Decoupling capacitors. The first pair seem to be tied to the second; what is going on here, I am not certain. Anyway, sound was overall more detailed and even the bass seemed clearer. (Edit: Actually, I have to admit that I had heard that my headphones are bass-heavy, but on the SbLive! that was absolutely NOT true. After replacing these signal caps, the bass does seem a bit heavy; enough to shroud some of the upper range that I used to notice, while the mid-range is beautiful. Applying film bypass caps to the filter caps of the ISA voltage rails did not seem to yield any real improvement as it did on the Live! I believe the 1uF signal caps on the SB16 really just need to be changed to films.)

    That pretty much finishes up a basic refresh for use with hard-drive audio. There are many other traces, such as the Line-In and the several CD-A inputs which could be recapped, but I have no interest in these. Actually, I may refresh the Line-In for use with a Playstation 1 I am refreshing, mainly to be used as a simple CD-Player, but also to improve sound while gaming.


    I do plan to replace many of the signal capacitors between the DSP and OpAmp as well as those between the Line-In jack and DSP with Metallized Polypropylene Films. I am still considering options for replacing the 470uF output capacitors as films would be too costly and bulky. Likely, non-polarized electrolytics bypassed with films will be the end result.

    I am considering one or two very simple modifications for the card as well. For example: The original schematic for the TEA2025B uses a 100uF filter capacitor at the Voltage Supply pin. Creative Labs saw fit to simply place a 10uF electrolytic before and after the voltage regulator. I will try adding a 100uF later, swapping it from in front of to behind the regulator to see what happens. I am also going to recap the Sound Blaster 16 in steps to see how it affects the sound and post the results. I'll get pics up ASAP! Happy reading!
    Last edited by Logistics; 08-06-2007, 01:17 PM.
    Presonus Audiobox USB, Schiit Magni 3, Sony MDR-V700

    #2
    Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

    I look forward to reading the updates (and perusing the pic's)

    BTW just curious... did you consider using Black Gate Capacitors for this Audiophile project?
    Viva LA Retro!

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

      dont waste your money on blackgates.
      fc will do just as good.
      i did a marantz 2270 for a freind who is deep in audiophoolism.
      right channel got blackgates
      left got panny fc
      i shrinkwrapped all the caps so they cannot be read.
      neither he or his audiophool buddies can tell.
      i finally did tell him though.
      now all his and his buddies stuff that get sent here for rebuild get fc.at 1/10 cost of blackgates.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

        Don't worry, I am not a Black Gate believer. It's not that I don't feel they improve sound over what a said product may have come with, but I don't believe they are unmatchable, as kc8adu points out and I will never pay the ridiculous price. The only plus is that you can get a Black Gate in a non-polarized, while FC and FM are polarized, and while I have used non-polarized electrolytics and found them to sound better than polarized, the real difference comes from switching to films. However, on cards like this, due to the design of their output stage, it's simply not worth investing so much money and real-estate in films.

        Originally, this project was to see how the SB16 combined with my particular headphones would sound compared to the SbLive!. I defenitely have more fun listening to the SB16, it is a much better combination. However, there are only so many reasonable changes you can make due to the design of the card. There are several L.C.R. networks on the card which I'm not about to mess with, and I would be afraid to alter the values of different components because I don't know how it would affect the sound combined with said networks.

        I believe I may leave the SB16 alone, now with it's capacitor refresh. I will, however change the input capacitors to metallized polypropylenes. (including those for the Line-In jack) Because it became a bit bass-heavy with my headphones after replacing the original 1uF's with FC's, I may downsize to 0.47uF's. That will likely be the end of it.
        Presonus Audiobox USB, Schiit Magni 3, Sony MDR-V700

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

          Bump for pics!

          PP-303X
          .

          .

          .

          .

          Sound Blaster 16 (CT2770)
          .

          .

          .

          I also wanted to mention that even though I had fun with this project, and the results were great, the SB16 cannot do ASIO. In fact, from what I can tell, it cannot do Kernel Streaming either. When I enable Kernel Streaming in Winamp, I hear music, but it sound EXACTLY the same as in any other typical mode. I think something fishy is going on here. After researching I found that it was not until the actual AWE32 (not the SB32) that ASIO was possible because it was the first card that allowed 16-bit DMA on both channels, in and out. The SB16 would allow 16-bit DMA on only a single channel while the other had to be 8-bit and was not a full-duplex card.

          Again, this project was to improve headphone listening on my particular phones, which it did. However, I believe the best thing to do would be to move to an AWE32 or better Sound Blaster card, while still retaining ISA of course so as to have the pleasure of ASIO/Kernel Streaming. And the reason for ISA is because there is nothing over 5V on the PCI bus, which means you will never have any real power for low-impedance headphones. But an examination of said card would be important, to make sure it has voltage regulation present for the OpAmp IC, and that it's getting decent voltage. The SB16 is regulated to 9V from a 12V rail. This allows for copious amounts of power in the headphone world.
          Presonus Audiobox USB, Schiit Magni 3, Sony MDR-V700

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

            Well, i have probably a AWE32 laying around.
            is one of those real big cards, you probably could not put in any normal sized system.
            Haven`t ried it since i have got it.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

              It shouldn't be any longer than a motherboard. It's not one of those CRAZY long cards which needed the little rails on the other side of the case to keep it from flexing. The SB32 is the same length, it just has different componentry.
              Presonus Audiobox USB, Schiit Magni 3, Sony MDR-V700

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

                i threw in the garbage a sb16 with scsi and a awe32 with extra ram. at the time they were really cool and i used to do some tracking with a friend but i havent looked back since i got into the http://www.m-audio.com/ stuff. i think there is better stuff than that also though.

                both were really long cards.

                it is possible to do asio with the kxproject drivers. but not with the sb16 though.
                capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

                  Originally posted by Logistics
                  Again, this project was to improve headphone listening on my particular phones, which it did. However, I believe the best thing to do would be to move to an AWE32 or better Sound Blaster card, while still retaining ISA of course so as to have the pleasure of ASIO/Kernel Streaming. And the reason for ISA is because there is nothing over 5V on the PCI bus, which means you will never have any real power for low-impedance headphones.
                  While it's not suited for your goal necessarily, the PCI bus has +-12V pins (pin A2 (2nd pin towards rear of system on the card back), and B1 (1st pin toward rear of system on the card face), so all you really need for this support is a PSU that does have the -12V rail as most do. Later SB cards did use 12V to power their onboard power amp chips. For example SB128 uses TDA1517 power amp chip (at 12V, IIRC) but there's no linear regulation stage before it, and so far as amplification goes, TDA1517 pales in comparison to most opamps for sound quality.

                  But an examination of said card would be important, to make sure it has voltage regulation present for the OpAmp IC, and that it's getting decent voltage. The SB16 is regulated to 9V from a 12V rail. This allows for copious amounts of power in the headphone world.
                  Another option is some Diamond brand PCI sound cards. Diamond Monster Sound MX300 (Vortex 2 based) for example, is very nice for a computer sound card and has a lot of upgrade potential. They have a discrete bipolar push pull output stage (2N3904/3906) driven by a boring SOIC opamp (TL074) and receiving +-12V to this output stage, so it doesn't need output coupling caps. It's Sigmatel 9708 DAC isn't the greatest but it has enough redeeming qualities to offset it.

                  Unfortunately I think there is only LC +-12V rail filtration, no regulation for these rails. Well actually I'm sure of that because I'm looking at one I have after I remembered it. However, the ferrite on these is not surface mount and it would be fairly easy to tack an LM78L09 and LM79L09 into the positions where these beads were on the power rails if you wanted to, and like all aged hardware it should be cheap to buy one online if you can find them. Has to be "MX300" version though, or maybe some other versions I am unware of but there were definitely other Monster Sound cards that were quite different and ordinary.
                  Last edited by 999999999; 09-24-2007, 12:46 AM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

                    Wow, someone replied further to this thread? hehe

                    Thanks for that information. After reading about the PCI bus, I had noticed that it did have a + and - 12V, but I thought it was only for JTAG, which seemed to be only a diagnostic related function. I didn't gather that this rail was actually usable to power an opamp. If it is, that's great! Now, I can check out old Aureal cards.

                    Hah, I remember I started working at Creative Labs right after they had bought out Aureal, and they had me go through and gut all of Aureal's computers and replace the Aureal sound cards with Creative cards and replace all the video cards with Creative cards, then reimage the systems. Some of those systems had the old Obsidian 3D cards, which were Voodoo2 SLI on a single board cards. Even back then they were way outdated, but it was amazing to see one in person. I remember dreaming of having one in the GLQuake days. Haha!
                    Presonus Audiobox USB, Schiit Magni 3, Sony MDR-V700

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

                      Originally posted by Logistics
                      As some of you may remember, I have been piecing together parts to build a project system for headphone listening. The idea is to recap the PSU, the Motherboard and the Sound Blaster 16 with low impedance, high ripple capacitors in an attempt to achieve better all-around sound.
                      I don't know why you'd ever want to do that, but please keep us posted on the progress! Might be kind of difficult, seeing that Creative's DAC design was far from being the best in the industry. (The SB16 has an SNR of less than 75 db or something like that, doesn't it?)

                      Hey, if it works out for the better, I'd like to do something similar to my el-cheapo OPTi 931 and see if I can get a halfway decent signal through it.

                      (I heard that certain Crystal sound cards actually perform decently, audio-wise, for being ISA sound cards. I believe the PCAVTech at http://www.pcavtech.com has details on a whole bunch of sound cards, not only ISA but PCI and onboard as well. The page is kinda old, but still very interesting - especially to see that the cheap-as-all-hell Ensoniq/Creative AudioPCI scores so high on the list!)

                      Originally posted by willawake
                      i threw in the garbage a sb16 with scsi and a awe32 with extra ram.
                      (cry)
                      The ever-amazing (and ever-affordable) KY, Chemi-con's best kept secret.

                      I'll probably be the only person going to SteamOS once it gets out of beta (ha ha.)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Refreshing the Sound Blaster 16!

                        Well, I've decided not to pursue recapping the BH6 because now that I know I cannot use ASIO with the SB16, it's not worth moving any further on this project. Actually, I would normally get an ISA card that could do ASIO, but this BH6 is being wierd, anyway. I'm having small issues with it that are nothing more than a tiny annoyance, but eh.

                        Bottom line, if I'm running the SbLive! in typical mode, without Kernel Streaming or ASIO, the SB16 sounds far better with my headphones, but a large part of that is surely that the SB16 can drive my headphones and the SbLive! cannot. It was fun! I'm going to build a stand-alone headphone amplifier based on the TEA2025B and then see how it sounds to run my SbLive! in ASIO out to it. Should be superb compared to anything I've tried so far.
                        Presonus Audiobox USB, Schiit Magni 3, Sony MDR-V700

                        Comment

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