Badcaps.net Forum
Go Back   Badcaps Forums > Motherboards with Bad Capacitors > All Others Motherboards
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2015, 01:40 PM   #1
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Hey guys,

I've got a G4S600-B (this board) that has about 2 dozen UCC KZG caps on it. This is in a digital audio encoder used at a radio station, so it's been on/powered pretty much 24/7 for a number of years. recently it's been getting flaky, so I pulled it apart and noticed that 7 of the 16 1500uF caps on the board are bulged. Did some more research, (signed up for this board!) and find that the KZGs are pretty much despised here.

So I'm looking to recap the motherboard. The KZGs on it are all 6.3V, 105degrees:


1500uf 8x20mm marked 5(7) 7S- 10
1500uf 10x20mm marked 6(7) 6G - 4
1500uf ~10x12mm marked 6(k) 8E - 2
470uf ~5x11mm marked 5(k) 6c - 3
470uf ~5x11mm marked 5(k) 6V - 3

I'm assuming that I ought to replace the 470uf caps too?

(EDIT: looks like all the rest of the on-board caps are Nichicon HM(M) or OST RLG)

I'm looking through Digikey, most of what I'm seeing is Nichicon/Panasonics/Rubycon. I'm not very knowledgeable on ripple currents, esv, etc., so I'm hoping someone on here can help me out with some compatible replacements. Here's where I'm looking:


I've never seen a MB with this many popped caps!

Thanks guys,

-J
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG1062.jpg (51.2 KB, 93 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG1065.jpg (329.3 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG1069.jpg (213.8 KB, 90 views)

Last edited by jesscat606; 02-19-2015 at 01:45 PM..
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2015, 06:05 PM   #2
trshaner
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Neptune, NJ
My Country: USA
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 2
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

The Panasonic FR series is a good choice for switching regulator applications such as on this motherboard.

https://industrial.panasonic.com/www...A0000CE132.pdf

Just make sure the diameter and lead spacing will fit and the same or higher working voltage.

There is a known issue with the Chemicon KZG capacitors. More info here:

http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30329

Ripple current and high-ESR is what caused these caps to fail.
trshaner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2015, 08:12 PM   #3
lti
Badcaps Veteran
 
lti's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
City & State: Windsor, Colorado
My Country: United States
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 1,910
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Nichicon HM series is a direct replacement, and HN and HZ series have lower ESR. I think any of those three series would work.

The 470F caps in the second picture are KY series, which don't need to be replaced.

Are you sure they are all rated for 6.3V? The larger 1500F caps might be rated for 16V.
lti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2015, 10:18 AM   #4
trshaner
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Neptune, NJ
My Country: USA
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 2
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Along with low ESR you want a capacitor with a high Endurance rating. The Panasonic FR series is now rated 5,000 hours at 105 C. Most are listed as 2,000 hours at 105 C.

http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/s...tion_combo.pdf

Choose a cap that has a 105 C 'Lifetime @ Temp' or 'Load Life' rating of 5,000 hours or higher if you're looking for long service life.

BTW - I worked at the manufacturer of your motherboard (DFI-ITOX) for 7 years. We and many other MB manufacturers had a slew of MB returns due to bad caps. Flatscreen TV manufacturers were also affected.
trshaner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 05:21 AM   #5
kc8adu
Super Moderator
 
kc8adu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
City & State: dayton ohio
My Country: U.S.A!
Line Voltage: 12vdc,120/240vac,480vac 3ph on my bench
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 8,289
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

i use polys in those.
the ones i fix from harris hdradio exporters seem to have had a rough life.
kc8adu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 12:46 PM   #6
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lti View Post
Nichicon HM series is a direct replacement, and HN and HZ series have lower ESR. I think any of those three series would work.

The 470F caps in the second picture are KY series, which don't need to be replaced.

Are you sure they are all rated for 6.3V? The larger 1500F caps might be rated for 16V.
Hey, thanks! I wondered about the 470s. All the Chemicons are 6.3V; the 16v ones are all OST.

The HM/HN/HZ don't have the failure issues the KZGs do?
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 12:47 PM   #7
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc8adu View Post
i use polys in those.
the ones i fix from harris hdradio exporters seem to have had a rough life.
Yeah, this one is a BE xpi10 HD Radio exporter - looks like it needed some TLC; I've already replaced a flaky PSU on it. I'm guessing the polys have higher heat tolerance? do you have any recommendations for poly replacements?
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 12:50 PM   #8
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trshaner View Post
Along with low ESR you want a capacitor with a high Endurance rating. The Panasonic FR series is now rated 5,000 hours at 105 C. Most are listed as 2,000 hours at 105 C.

http://na.industrial.panasonic.com/s...tion_combo.pdf

Choose a cap that has a 105 C 'Lifetime @ Temp' or 'Load Life' rating of 5,000 hours or higher if you're looking for long service life.

BTW - I worked at the manufacturer of your motherboard (DFI-ITOX) for 7 years. We and many other MB manufacturers had a slew of MB returns due to bad caps. Flatscreen TV manufacturers were also affected.
Thanks! I was talking with the manufacturer of the unit (who used the dfi-itox board), and they were saying they had a lot of those units come in with this problem. wanted $2000 to replace the MB - apparently the working stock of these is really low!)
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 01:41 PM   #9
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,860
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

The lifetime rating on the Panasonic FR is meaningless in this application, in the sense that if the Panasonic FR capacitor is meant to withstand all the ripple of an ultra-low ESR cap, it's lifetime rating wll probably be equal to or less than the ultra-low ESR cap. Moreso, FR has a lower ripple rating (not to mention that it will also get hotter because of its higher ESR), so it could last significantly less time.

You should use HM/HN/HZ. You mentioned you were looking at Digikey. They may or may not have what you need in an electrolytic cap. You might try doing a polymer re-cap.

Since this machine seems to be from 2006, it's robably worthwhile to have a look inside the PSU to check if the caps in there are OK. That way, you can order both the motherboard and PSU caps together and save on shipping.
__________________
...Their plight, in fact is even worse, they don't realize that they're cantonists, they think they're free men. What a slavery that is - to confuse slavery for light, and bitter darkness for bright light.
-Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 03:49 PM   #10
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
You should use HM/HN/HZ. You mentioned you were looking at Digikey. They may or may not have what you need in an electrolytic cap. You might try doing a polymer re-cap.

Since this machine seems to be from 2006, it's robably worthwhile to have a look inside the PSU to check if the caps in there are OK. That way, you can order both the motherboard and PSU caps together and save on shipping.
Yeah, this is an old machine. as I had noted above, I had already replaced the PSU with a new one a number of months ago...wasn't looking for cap problems at the time, so didn't notice them.


Several people have mentioned going with polymer caps. I dunno much about them - would something like this work?

EDIT: Oh, wait, that's SMD - not the right mounting style.

Digikey doesn't seem to have the HM/HN/HZ caps, you're right.

Last edited by jesscat606; 02-23-2015 at 03:54 PM..
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 04:46 PM   #11
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,860
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesscat606 View Post
1500uf 8x20mm marked 5(7) 7S- 10
1500uf 10x20mm marked 6(7) 6G - 4
1500uf ~10x12mm marked 6(k) 8E - 2
470uf ~5x11mm marked 5(k) 6c - 3
470uf ~5x11mm marked 5(k) 6V - 3
I think you meant those 4 caps were 16V, not 6.3V. So for the 16V 1500uF caps, here are the choices:
this, this, or this. (Nichicon HM/HN)

If you want to experiment with polymer, this, or this should work, maybe even overkill.

For the 10 6.3V 1500uF capacitors:
this, this, this, this, or this.

Polymer:
this, this, or this.

For the 2 short 1500uF caps:
this, or this.

Polymer:
this, this, this, or this.

Last edited by mockingbird; 02-23-2015 at 04:49 PM..
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2015, 01:47 PM   #12
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
i think you meant those 4 caps were 16v, not 6.3v. So for the 16v 1500uf caps, here are the choices:
this, this, or this. (nichicon hm/hn)

if you want to experiment with polymer, this, or this should work, maybe even overkill.

overkill? I note that those are 1000uf, not 1500...is there a reason this is ok, other than that's the nearest size Digikey has? (I'm not tied to digikey, I'm just more familiar with them.)

for the 10 6.3v 1500uf capacitors:
this, this, this, this, or this.

Polymer:
this, this, or this.

these are all 2.5v, not 6.3v. The only 1500uf/6.3v/8mm polys i saw were smd.


for the 2 short 1500uf caps:
this, or this.

Polymer:
this, this, this, or this.

Those look like they would work.
Are there any likely problems or concerns with mixing poly/non-poly caps on a board? I like the extended life of the polys, but don't wanna cause issues.

-j

Last edited by jesscat606; 02-24-2015 at 01:47 PM.. Reason: further thoughts...
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2015, 02:02 PM   #13
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,860
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesscat606 View Post
overkill? I note that those are 1000uf, not 1500...is there a reason this is ok, other than that's the nearest size Digikey has? (I'm not tied to digikey, I'm just more familiar with them.)
Because when you replace VRM high caps, you usually use polymer equivalents with a much much lower capacitance. This has mainly to do with the fact that 16V polymers don't go very high in capacitance, especially at 8mm. Since yours are 10mm, I chose 1000uF to be safe, eventhough you can probably use as low as 270uF here.

The reason that you can get away with this on the VRM high, is that with the VRM high, low ESR and high ripple are important, and not bulk capacitance, or at least that's what I have been told.
Quote:
these are all 2.5v, not 6.3v. The only 1500uf/6.3v/8mm polys i saw were smd.
Pentium 4 VCore is less than 1.5V. That's why 2.5V is more than sufficient on the VRM low. If you bought 6.3V ones in 8mm, you'd just be spending a whole lot more money for no reason.
Quote:
Are there any likely problems or concerns with mixing poly/non-poly caps on a board? I like the extended life of the polys, but don't wanna cause issues.
Nope. At least not in your case.

I've done it myself. I have an Asus P5B I use almost on a daily basis. For the VRM high, I used ordinary Nichicon HM, and for the VRM low, all UCC PSC 2.5v 820uF polymer caps.
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2015, 10:49 AM   #14
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

So, I picked up the Panasonic polys, just got them...and the leads are 1.2mmm wide - and won't fit the holes. Returning them and will likely go with the HMs - which have 0.6mm leads.
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 05:12 PM   #15
c_hegge
Badcaps Veteran
 
c_hegge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
City & State: North Coast, NSW
My Country: Australia
Line Voltage: 240V 50Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 5,052
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

^
Really? Which ones did you get? The leads on all polies I've seen have been the same 0.6mm as HM.
__________________
I love putting bad caps and flat batteries in fire and watching them explode!!

No wonder it doesn't work! You installed the jumper wires backwards

Main PC: Core i7 3770K 3.5GHz, Gigabyte GA-Z77M-D3H-MVP, 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 1600, 240GB Intel 335 Series SSD, 750GB WD HDD, Sony Optiarc DVD RW, Palit nVidia GTX660 Ti, CoolerMaster N200 Case, Delta DPS-600MB 600W PSU, Hauppauge TV Tuner, Windows 7 Home Premium

Office PC: HP ProLiant ML150 G3, 2x Xeon E5335 2GHz, 4GB DDR2 RAM, 120GB Intel 530 SSD, 2x 250GB HDD, 2x 450GB 15K SAS HDD in RAID 1, 1x 2TB HDD, nVidia 8400GS, Delta DPS-650BB 650W PSU, Windows 7 Pro
c_hegge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 05:23 PM   #16
RJARRRPCGP
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
City & State: North Springfield, Vermont
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 123-127V 61.5-63.5 Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 4,708
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesscat606 View Post
wanted $2000 to replace the MB
Bullshit!!

You can get a 5960X with an X99 motherboard for less than that!
__________________
Asus P6T6 WS Revolution

Core i7 Extreme "Bloomfield" 965

Asus Strix GeForce GTX 970

Windows 7 SP1

SoundBlaster ZXR

Corsair TX850M PSU


"There's nothing more unattractive than a chick smoking a cigarette" -Topcat

"Don't eat yellow snow!" -Salem

"did I see a chair fly? I think I did! Time for popcorn!" -ratdude747
RJARRRPCGP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2015, 09:41 AM   #17
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_hegge View Post
^
Really? Which ones did you get? The leads on all polies I've seen have been the same 0.6mm as HM.
Actually, I need to retract that last. I was thinking the leads were too big; what happened was I was getting leftover solder in the mounting holes, not letting me get the new caps in. which is being a real PITA, because these caps mount on a huge copper plate (on both sides of the board!) and it's almost impossible to heat it long enough to use my solder sucker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RJARRRPCGP View Post
Bullshit!!

You can get a 5960X with an X99 motherboard for less than that!
Yes, well, this is in an HD Radio encoder; it's got a custom, proprietary linux build that expects all the IRQ / PCI / Northbridge / Southbridge / CPU settings of this motherboard.

So I'm pretty much stuck with this specific motherboard. Which, since it's long since discontinued, is horrifically expensive.
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2015, 04:28 PM   #18
jesscat606
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
City & State: Xenia, OH
My Country: USA
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 15
Talking Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Bam!

Now to see if it will boot back up. Here's hoping I didn't screw it up!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20150423_181147376_HDR.jpg (667.0 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20150423_182101236_HDR.jpg (759.4 KB, 40 views)
jesscat606 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2015, 08:33 PM   #19
c_hegge
Badcaps Veteran
 
c_hegge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
City & State: North Coast, NSW
My Country: Australia
Line Voltage: 240V 50Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 5,052
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Looks good! The caps all look like they are installed correctly. Fire it up and see how it goes.
c_hegge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2015, 08:36 PM   #20
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,860
Default Re: DFI-ITOX G4S600-B with Chemicon KZGs - compatible caps?

Nice job! Any reason you chose not to replace the 5 or so 6.3mm OST caps, most of them near the northbridge?
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Badcaps.net Technical Forums 2003 - 2019
Powered by vBulletin ®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:02 AM.
Did you find this forum helpful?