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Old 04-17-2012, 08:41 AM   #1
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Question Why are crap caps still in use???

Who knows??? No way would I consider cost cutting a good reason. Planned obsolescence??? Incompetence??? Anything else???
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Cost cutting is a damn good reason... 3-5 capacitors per monitor, 100k monitors equals 500k capacitors. The difference between 0.30$ per capacitor or 0.10$ per capacitor when you buy 500k capacitors can be a lot.

Also... designs rushed to market, sometimes without evaluating properly the effect of temperature and dust on the components inside. Sometimes it's not quite so good engineers.
Incompetence... business managers and purchasing managers thinking they'll get a bonus for saving company a few cents choosing another capacitor manufacturer even though the engineer specified certain series of capacitors...

Sometimes it's also pride...like Samsung sticking with Korean manufacturers of capacitors (Samwha) or Chinese companies NOT working with Taiwanese brands...

Sometimes it's intentional... make the chances of failure after 3-4 years high and give them 2 year warranty, so that they'll pay 50-100$ for warranty or buy new set..
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariushm View Post
Cost cutting is a damn good reason... 3-5 capacitors per monitor, 100k monitors equals 500k capacitors. The difference between 0.30$ per capacitor or 0.10$ per capacitor when you buy 500k capacitors can be a lot.
In the short term yes, but you don't save anything in the long term if the result is EPIC FAILURE.

Quote:
Also... designs rushed to market, sometimes without evaluating properly the effect of temperature and dust on the components inside. Sometimes it's not quite so good engineers.
They'd know the consequences if they'd just take the time to read these forums...

Quote:
Incompetence... business managers and purchasing managers thinking they'll get a bonus for saving company a few cents choosing another capacitor manufacturer even though the engineer specified certain series of capacitors...
In my mind I'm thinking of starting a top-quality PC company. To find employees that have any real competence at all would be hard enough, let alone employees that know how to build top quality. Maybe just going on by myself would be easier.

Quote:
Sometimes it's also pride...like Samsung sticking with Korean manufacturers of capacitors (Samwha) or Chinese companies NOT working with Taiwanese brands...
Local isn't always the way to go...LOL

Quote:
Sometimes it's intentional... make the chances of failure after 3-4 years high and give them 2 year warranty, so that they'll pay 50-100$ for warranty or buy new set..
Oh no!!! The environment!!!!!
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

^^

That over there is signature material. Hope you don't mind.
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Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
A working TV? How boring!
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Feel free. It's my version of comments I've heard about spendthrift politicians. OTOH, do-nothing pols here are said to be, "kicking the can down the road," i.e. leaving the mess for the next person in the office.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

I think another reason for using bad caps is because manufacturers have no idea that the caps they are using are in fact low quality. For example, few people outside of badcaps.net realise that KZG are bad. Even many reviewers think Teapo are also good. From my experience, they aren't much better than Fuhjyyu.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_hegge View Post
I think another reason for using bad caps is because manufacturers have no idea that the caps they are using are in fact low quality.
You know, there were manufacturers that cared about capacitor quality before the Bad Caps scandal.

Quote:
For example, few people outside of badcaps.net realise that KZG are bad.
I think this case is somewhat forgivable because (A) they know it's from Chemi-con, so they think it's good and (B) some people might not even understand the different series.

Quote:
Even many reviewers think Teapo are also good. From my experience, they aren't much better than Fuhjyyu.
I can't really forgive people for this because since when was Teapo Japanese???

In order from best to worst, how would you put the different non-Japanese brands??? I'm leaning on Taicon as the best (excluding SamXon). There could be brands worse than GSC/Evercon/Sacon, I suppose - not that you're likely to encounter one. I'm also curious about Aishi. I've only seen about 1-2 blown myself (in CFLs), but they aren't common so this isn't saying much. Any experience with them???
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Well, in my bag of bad caps I pulled I have approx %:

40% CapXon
30% Samwha (90% WB, 10% XC)
15% Teapo
5% Samyoung
5% "Other Chinese Brand" (JH, TK, Jackcon, Jun Fu, others...)
5% Chemicon (KZG)

From ~15 TVs with bad caps plus other devices.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Quote:
You know, there were manufacturers that cared about capacitor quality before the Bad Caps scandal.
I don't know their current practice, but the Deciduous Fruit Computer Company in Cupertino used to (ca. 1999) specify that only Nichicon and NCC/UCC 'lytics were to be used in power supplies for their products.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shocker View Post
No way would I consider cost cutting a good reason.
Yes you would. The low quality caps are your fault. Here's why.

Add $5 for good caps at manufacturing.
Add $10 for good caps at source distribution.
Add $20 for good caps at destination distribution.
Add $40 to the price of a TV set at the store and it won't sell. This other brand is the same TV for $40 less and I think it looks better.

As for planned obsolescence, look at the rewards for cutting $5 at manufacturing. Lots more TV's sell, the boss gets a new Ferrari, and the workers get to keep their jobs as the customer pays for the same thing again and again. Corporations win and people lose. It's win win for everyone!

Did I forget to mention it's YOUR FAULT (and mine), you cheapskate?

TV's have it even worse. People are begging for reasons to be "forced" to buy a new TV. Breaking down is like a message from heaven: $PEND!
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Definition of planned obsolescence:

Quote:
Severely frustrating the customer while using up valuable resources and creating lots of pollution. All that just to get a few more $$$.
NO company in the WORLD has ANY right to do THAT. Period.

Don't even get me started on computer speaker power ratings.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Looks like someone may be making fake copyright claims to have the videos taken down.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Before the advent of LCDs and plasma, CRTs were essentially the only technology available. And people liked that. Why upgrade? The only big change in CRT technology was the introduction of colour, but that was it for 50 years. Same resolution. Maybe SCART was a new feature.

Now, with LCDs and plasma TVs, it is display resolution, contrast ratio, motion-enhancing nonsense, new incompatible inputs, whether it's 2D or 3D, LED backlight/new PDP/etc... manufacturers have to keep coming out with new stuff (and make the old stuff break) to convince people to buy a new thing, or everything will stagnate again.

Things -must- break or people won't buy something new. Or, they will, but they will then sell their old equipment. That's why many retailers give incentives for old equipment: to remove it from the used market. It will simply be disposed of. One less used thing to compete against. Game publishers hate used games, worse than piracy for them.

Solution? Maybe: Encourage companies to offer a warranty on all products. Say, a 5% VAT cut for a 5 year warranty. 10% for 10 years. Perhaps a minimum of 3 years. Also, instead of making it the retailer's job to dispose of the TV (WEEE), make it the manufacturer's responsibility -and- if possible introduce an incentive for refurbishing over disposal.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

The tech industry is seriously going downhill...

What's the best way to get true quality???
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Study lots of reviews for hardware, see what company is consistent when it comes to the quality of their products, then choose the best price for the value.

For example, I could buy an 1300$ Eizo LCD screen that will last 10 years or more, or I could buy a 300$ Samsung LCD that will last 2 years and then buy another 300$ Samsung LCD that's more advanced than the old one, and repeat the process.

If I hate the waste, I go for the expensive Eizo.

But I guess I'll get more value for the money by just buying another monitor when the old one starts to go bad. Spending just 300-400$, I can invest the rest of the money or leave in the bank to grow.

As good as the 1300$ Eizo could be, it's inevitable the CFL lamps or the LEDs inside will start to go bad after a few years...

On the other hand, it can be very different with other hardware, power supplies for example.

I spent close to 250$ on my Seasonic X-650 when I could have spent 100$ on a decent normal one.
It's on one hand a sort of insurance for my system so I know it's unlikely to die and kill other components in the system (the Seasonic is top grade psu, all quality parts inside, Japanese capacitors and all that).
I also know that unlike cheaper power supplies, this one will probably last me at least 5-10 years.
And last, due to its increase efficiency (up to 92% efficiency), in long term especially as my system runs almost 24/7, I will save money compared to using the cheaper 100% psu with 80% efficiency. I'm probably saving 5-10$ a month in electricity costs - the difference pays itself in a few years.

So with monitors, it often doesn't pay to go for a more quality, expensive one, while with other components like power supplies it does pay.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:43 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

as far as motherboards is concerned I'm seeing a trend going for solid vrm caps, and a number of all solid cap boards. In addition more power phases reduce strain on each individual 'fet, but I see most fets are double-packaged and not heatsinked, which concerns me
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariushm View Post
Study lots of reviews for hardware, see what company is consistent when it comes to the quality of their products, then choose the best price for the value.
For me, it's the third option: Buy stuff broken and fix it.

That way you know that it will last longer, and it's cheaper too.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why are crap caps still in use???

or in my case get it free when it it set out to the curb.
looking at a 55" samsung 1080p plasma just dropped of by a junker.
he is on disability for being legally blind.but he has his son drive the truck and does well spotting stuff worth saving.scrap metal is now his secondary target.
its the highest level of recycling.
far from
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For me, it's the third option: Buy stuff broken and fix it.

That way you know that it will last longer, and it's cheaper too.
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