CDs make me sick

[Phaihn]

Re: CDs make me sick

i dont store data on cds anymore

[mariushm]

Re: CDs make me sick

No, it's due to quality control or simply because you bought some "grade b" discs.
It's hard to tell, often a manufacturer will "outsource" some of their discs to third party companies.

For example, Verbatim has the AZO technology which is supposed to be very good and makes durable discs BUT at least in Europe, the discs with AZO that they make are only the ones in jewel case... the big bulky cases.
The ones in slim cases or the ones in 10/25 packs are actually made by CMC Magnetics or Moser Baer in India and are not made with AZO.. and are obviously cheaper.

example :



This is Verbatim AZO (an exception to the rules, the later cake boxes are outsourced) :


Pre-recorded Information:
Manufacturer ID: MCC 03RG20

Recording Management Area Information:
HL-DT-ST f144 DVDRAM GH20NS15

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: 0@P-!-00
Book Type: DVD-R
Part Version: 5
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 1
Track Path: Parallel Track Path (PTP)
Linear Density: 0.267 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 2,486,735
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 0

Performance (Write Speed):
Descriptor 1...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 2290127 (0x0022F1CF)
-> RS: 9,168 KB/s (6.8x) - WS: 5,540 KB/s (4x)
Descriptor 2...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 2290127 (0x0022F1CF)
-> RS: 9,168 KB/s (6.8x) - WS: 11,080 KB/s (8x)
Descriptor 3...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 2290127 (0x0022F1CF)
-> RS: 9,168 KB/s (6.8x) - WS: 22,160 KB/s (16x)
Descriptor 4...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 2290127 (0x0022F1CF)
-> RS: 9,168 KB/s (6.8x) - WS: 24,930 KB/s (18x)
Descriptor 5...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 2290127 (0x0022F1CF)
-> RS: 9,168 KB/s (6.8x) - WS: 27,700 KB/s (20x)


You can see even if the disc has 16x pe el, the max speed reported in it is 20x. 4x is really not recommended for these.

I don't have access to my printable DVD-R to show you they're made by others but I can show you with CD-Rs:

non-azo 700MB:




ATIP Information:
Disc ID: 97m26s66f
Manufacturer: CMC Magnetics Corp.
Start Time of LeadIn: 97m26s66f
Last Possible Start Time of LeadOut: 79m59s71f

Performance (Write Speed):
Descriptor 1...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 706 KB/s (4x)
Descriptor 2...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 1,411 KB/s (8x)
Descriptor 3...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 2,822 KB/s (16x)
Descriptor 4...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 4,235 KB/s (24x)
Descriptor 5...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 5,646 KB/s (32x)
Descriptor 6...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 7,057 KB/s (40x)
Descriptor 7...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 296658 (0x000486D2)
-> RS: 3,656 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 8,468 KB/s (48x)


The max speed inside the disc is listed as 48x, the disc outside says 52x. Also, outsourced to CMC Magnetics. OK discs, but not comparable with AZO.

And now the real thing, AZO CD-R, Verbatim DataLifePlus :


ATIP Information:
Disc ID: 97m34s23f
Manufacturer: Mitsubishi Chemical Corp.
Start Time of LeadIn: 97m34s23f
Last Possible Start Time of LeadOut: 79m59s73f

Performance (Write Speed):
Descriptor 1...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 706 KB/s (4x)
Descriptor 2...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 1,411 KB/s (8x)
Descriptor 3...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 2,822 KB/s (16x)
Descriptor 4...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 4,235 KB/s (24x)
Descriptor 5...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 5,646 KB/s (32x)
Descriptor 6...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 7,057 KB/s (40x)
Descriptor 7...
-> B0: 0x02, B1: 0x00, B2: 0x00, B3: 0x00
-> EL: 323996 (0x0004F19C)
-> RS: 3,654 KB/s (24.4x) - WS: 8,468 KB/s (48x)


As you can see, not lying about the max speed, 48x on it and in the profiles...


Anyway... your discs didn't fail because you burned them at 48x like i said... the burner actually won't burn them at 48x or the 48x is achieved only on the last 50-100 MB of the disc in the case of CD-R.

There's several methods of controlling the speed: CLV (constant linear velocity), CAV (constant angular velocity), partial CAV and others... most modern ones are partial cav. With the later, there's several zones where the drive can ramp up its speed to burn the next section.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_linear_velocity

The drive's firmware also has a table of data regarding the chemical substances used in the disc and a manufacturer code and these are often used to override or "optimize" the way the unit writes to that disc.

The problem is some manufacturers clone the information from discs made by more quality manufacturers so the drive uses the wrong strategy to burn your disc and discs fail.

With my current DVD burner for example, even if the disc says it supports 24x sometimes the writer won't go higher than 16x... it happens with bottom of the barrel discs such as Princo or Budget. I use these to create memtest discs for friends (2-8 MB on them is no problem)

If I choose a burn speed of 20-24x and it likes the disc because the firmware has information about it, it follows a "writing strategy" in which the first 800 MB or so are written at 8-10x (depends on what the disc reports as minimum, then it jumps to 16-18x and finally at about 3.5 GB it goes to 20-24x all the way to 4.4 GB
That's why I don't even bother with speeds higher than 12x-16x. If I want the dvd to last me more than 1 year, I burn it at 8x... otherwise it depends on how many I have to burn but usually 10-12x. 16x won't finish it faster but will make more noise.

Oh... why 8x minimum... a lot of DVD writers only enable their burn fail protections at 8x or higher... if for example there's a hiccup and the hard drive becomes very stressed, the drive would fail to pause and wait for data at less than 8x write speed.

[Agent24]

Re: CDs make me sick

Is that why some cheap 48x discs I had failed when burnt at 48x, because they were designed to go fast?

Cheap discs are just cheap, and will fail quickly no matter how you burn them.

I don't go 1x due to sheer slowness, but do 4x sometimes. never had a problem yet. But I use decent media.

[mariushm]

Re: CDs make me sick

That's bad. Really not a good idea to burn at the lowest speed - lots of discs have the setting imprinted in the read only section for compatibility reasons (so that people won't return the discs when they put them in let's say a 2x external cd-rw unit) but this doesn't mean the discs should be written at that speed.

The newer CD and DVD discs have different chemical formulations in the substance they use so they're really not suitable for 1x-4x speeds.

With the DVD-R or DVD+R discs that are rated for 16x and up, you really shouldn't go lower than 4-6x... and with CDs I would dare to say don't go lower than 8x.

[severach]

Re: CDs make me sick

ImgBurn shows the available write speeds when the CD is inserted. I burn at the lowest speed. Whether it takes 6 minutes or 1.2 minutes makes no difference to me.

[momaka]

Re: CDs make me sick

Too many people think that just because a disk says 48X on it, that it should be burned at that speed. WRONG! The slower the burn, the better the burn and the less likely it will have errors on it. I never burn any CD or DVD at over 8x for CD's and 4x for DVD's.
Then the disk goes right into a Tyvek sleeve and then into a Disk Bank for safe keeping. If one of my disks is not in the drive, then it's in its sleeve. They are NEVER left laying around Naked.

+1.
In fact, I think this is why my CDs have lasted so long.

When I got my first CD burner (LG CED-8080B - got it used on ebay for $30), I was only burning CDs (RiTek RFD80M) on 2x. Later I started burning on 4x. Now I just go max speed with that burner - which is not a problem since it tops out at 8x. It never gave me a coaster CD, except early when I got the burner - but that was a fault with the software I was using at the time (it was some free, poorly programmed crap).

Even with other burners, I don't go above 16x for CDs (with 16x being used for CDs that I don't care much about). Normally 8x to 12x is what I use. 2x and 4x are too slow and wear out the burning laser since it has to work for too long. 8x is quicker so there's less wear on the laser.

The only problem I have with CD/DVD's is the burners themselves. They are all made in China, by the lowest bidder. It's a modern miracle that they work at all. I wind up changing out my own DVD burner about once a year.

Well, lasers do have a finite life, so the more you burn, the quicker they will break. Same goes for the the spindle motor. Of course, the problem is severely accelerated if the drives use low-quality lasers and spindle motors - which all of today's drives do, unfortunately. Hence the high-failure rate.

[smason]

Re: CDs make me sick

why would you want to step on them?

It's just one more thing to whine about.

If they were gold plated, he'd bitch that they were "too shiny"

[Agent24]

Re: CDs make me sick

Too many people think that just because a disk says 48X on it, that it should be burned at that speed. WRONG! The slower the burn, the better the burn and the less likely it will have errors on it. I never burn any CD or DVD at over 8x for CD's and 4x for DVD's.

Too true. However high-speed CD-RWs often require to be burned at at least 12x though they work just fine.

But seem to have an even worse life than CD-Rs, every single CD-RW I've owned eventually ends up with the reflective layer full of holes and little tracks where it looks like it's been chewed by a caterpillar or something.

[ThePCDoctor]

Re: CDs make me sick

TopCat,
See how far requesting a "location" gets you?
I'm constantly asking people to do that, but........alas.....

Some dude will come on a forum and ask "where can I buy a whatsis?"
I'll tell him to go down to Staples. Then he says "we don't have those in India"... Touche'
It would have saved a lot of time and discomfort if he'd of just put his location into his Public Information in the first place.

The only saving grace with CD's, DVD's, etc, is that the professionally made ones are Stamped, like the old Records, and not burned like we do at home.

So the factory produced disks should last for many years longer than the ones we burn ourselves. And those Stamped disks will read on drives that are no longer able to read the Home-Made disks.

Too many people think that just because a disk says 48X on it, that it should be burned at that speed. WRONG! The slower the burn, the better the burn and the less likely it will have errors on it. I never burn any CD or DVD at over 8x for CD's and 4x for DVD's.
Then the disk goes right into a Tyvek sleeve and then into a Disk Bank for safe keeping. If one of my disks is not in the drive, then it's in its sleeve. They are NEVER left laying around Naked.

The only problem I have with CD/DVD's is the burners themselves. They are all made in China, by the lowest bidder. It's a modern miracle that they work at all. I wind up changing out my own DVD burner about once a year.

But in spite of what I just said, they are still a lot better than my very first CD writer. It was the size of a boot box (bigger than a shoebox) and cost me (used) $149. for a 1X drive. We've come a long ways, since then. OH, and it required a special driver card to be installed in a slot in the computer.
I think that was something akin to a SCSI card.

Cheers mates! (be thankful for what you have!)

The Doctor

[momaka]

Re: CDs make me sick

I've never had a CD go bad on me.
Some of mine have turned gold in color due to sitting directly under sun light. They still work fine, though. I have found some pretty scratched ones too, and they all read okay on my LG CED-8080B.

I still use CD-Rs and CD-RWs. In fact, I prefer them over DVDs most of the time, especially if I need to write small files.

Also due to their low data density, they can take a lot more abuse than DVDs.

[Shocker]

Re: CDs make me sick

BTW, I think I've got a case of DVD bronzing.

[severach]

Re: CDs make me sick

LOL...who thought making a high-precision optical device out of easily scratched polycarbonate and then not encasing it was a good idea???

The same person who thought that CDs should be as easy and cheap to make as records so there wouldn't be supply problems every time an entertainer releases a new hit album that sells millions of copies in a weekend.

If CD releases cost 4 times a much or took several months longer than record releases then the format wouldn't have caught on as fast.

Lots of technologies came out soon after CDs that were better and safer. Why didn't you buy them?

Because they were too expensive. CD was cheap and good enough.

The good is the enemy of the best. (not said by Voltaire)

[ratdude747]

Re: CDs make me sick

For the same reason you dont follow the site rules and put your location in your profile (although your comcast IP shows you to be in Illnois)......its annoying.

Quoted for Truth

[Topcat]

Re: CDs make me sick

why would you want to smash them with a hammer?

For the same reason you dont follow the site rules and put your location in your profile (although your comcast IP shows you to be in Illnois)......its annoying.

[Keatah]

Re: CDs make me sick

Hmm.. One good whack with a sledgehammer and both will be equally toast.

why would you want to smash them with a hammer?

If you need that level of protection, then you buy a steel safe and put the media in there.

[Keatah]

Re: CDs make me sick

But you have to take it OUT of the case to use it. Plus, jewel cases crack if you step on them.

why would you want to step on them?

[mariushm]

Re: CDs make me sick

I know, but I'm too concerned about their long term reliability to recommend them.
Also, they're much more expensive.

The chemical composition of the most often used dvds is already time tested so if you get quality discs, your data is safe for 2-3 years, at least..

[Shocker]

Re: CDs make me sick

First of all, why use CDs when you have DVD discs?

First, "DVD disc" is redundant.

Second, we have Blu-ray.

[mariushm]

Re: CDs make me sick

First of all, why use CDs when you have DVD discs?
Second... stop and think about it, how much is a 1 TB drive and how much are packs of 8x25 dvd packs?
I'll tell you, about the same.

1 TB drive (~950 GB usable)... 90$ : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136490
8 x 25 dvd packs (~ 880 GB usable) ... 70$ .... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817172099

It's just not worth it, do the initial investment and store your data on it. if you're paranoid, get a second one and keep them in two separate parts of your house or store one at your parents' house.

[Agent24]

Re: CDs make me sick

There are piles of tools to emulate CD\DVD drives from ISO images etc, haven't heard of that one before though.