KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

I was thinkin' go to Mexico for the cheap Labor and form the Mexi-Con capacitor company.
.

[Rulycat]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

I think some of you guys need to start some sort of US based cap company and sell to TopCat.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

You are too lost to waste any more of my time with.
.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

You just proved it does need to be.
- The two points.
- Point 1 - The "Reference"
- Point 2 - The point that is some value "Relative" to the reference.

Both are completely relative to each other. Two points is all you need. Knowing which is which is just polarity or phase inversion issue.

Where would you put reference on charged unpolarised cap ?

And that filter is a CAPACITOR.

Yes it is. Exactly because it removes all DC bias and allows you to observe pure AC.

- So you've just provided an example that shows exactly what I said is true.

Now you are just silly.

Zero volts or zero cross for AC can be anywhere you like. Think why it is like that.

You can subtract from DC, you can add to it or you can modulate it, having adding and substracting averaging at zero of + or ground line.

Voltage doesn't go through the cap, current does. <<- Why is this hard to understand???

Alternating voltage passes easily. So does DC but only until cap is charged.

It's also current that makes the pretty picture on the scope.

Scope measures voltage, not current. If you want to measure current you need series resistor which will have some potential across it which you can then measure.

There is no DC current through the cap.
There is AC current through the cap and it reveres directions.

Nice that you figured it out.

Now do the same with voltages:
There is DC voltage
There is AC voltage

Substract max. AC value from DC voltage and you will get lowest and highest voltage on cap and you will know if cap gets reverse biased.

- And just like with the scope, it doesn't give a damn about any DC potential, it just passes AC current.

It gives a damn. Because it is polarised.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Voltage is in referenced to some other point.
Does not need to be. Voltage is mere potential between two points.

You just proved it does need to be.
- The two points.
- Point 1 - The "Reference"
- Point 2 - The point that is some value "Relative" to the reference.

Here we are speaking about voltage on capacitor leads.

I'm glad you caught that.

And DC filer on oscilloscope doesn't give a damn about any DC potential and just shows AC waveform.

And that filter is a CAPACITOR.
- So you've just provided an example that shows exactly what I said is true.

Voltage doesn't go through the cap, current does. <<- Why is this hard to understand???
It's also current that makes the pretty picture on the scope.

There is no DC current through the cap.
There is AC current through the cap and it reveres directions.

- And just like with the scope, it doesn't give a damn about any DC potential, it just passes AC current.

In fact if it didn't -> the Ripple wouldn't be filtered out of the circuit.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

When you gain an understanding of what voltage is you might begin to understand caps.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Voltage is in referenced to some other point.
Does not need to be. Voltage is mere potential between two points. Here we are speaking about voltage on capacitor leads.



If the DC is at +12v then the Zero Volts for the AC is at +12v DC.

Zero Volts for AC can be on 12VDC
Or 0VDC with inverted phase.
Or anywhere in between if you calculate zero voltage from Pk-Pk or RMS voltage.
AC does not need to have 'zero Volts' anywhere as it is relative.
And DC filer on oscilloscope doesn't give a damn about any DC potential and just shows AC waveform.

As I said before. If ripple voltage never causes cap to go reverse biased there is no harm.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

What is the DC -current- through a charged cap?
--> 0


And some leakage yes.



What is the total current through the cap?
+ then - then + then - then + then -

What is total voltage on the cap?

+ then + then + then + then + then +

Wrong.
Voltage is in referenced to some other point.
- The AC and DC are referenced to different points.

If the DC is at +12v then the Zero Volts for the AC is at +12v DC.

As the DC results in zero current it doesn't make a lick of difference what it is because it is not causing any electrons to move inside the cap.

Insofar as any electron movement [current] inside the cap the DC volts = zero.


.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

What is the DC -current- through a charged cap?
--> 0


And some leakage yes.



What is the total current through the cap?
+ then - then + then - then + then -

What is total voltage on the cap?

+ then + then + then + then + then +

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Yes it does to AC.

You are trying to reference the AC [which has a current] to the DC [which doesn't have current] ground.
-- IOW: You are referencing the AC to the DC's ground.
That is an error.
Doesn't work that way.
.

What is the DC -current- through a charged cap?
--> 0

What is the AC Ripple -current- through the cap?
+ then - then + then - then + then -

What is the total current through the cap?
+ then - then + then - then + then -

.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

And if AC Peak-Peak is always lower than DC ?

Cap never goes reverse biased

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Yes if both AC and DC are at zero then it doesn't blow chucks,
- the layer just dissolves slowly back into the electrolyte solution,
- it dissolves the same way as the chucks that get blown into the electrolyte when there is AC voltage.

We are talking about blowing chunks and I haven't even been drinking.
.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Those chunks will only get blasted off when plate goes negative. If you leave cap at 0V it won't go anywhere.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Yes, the AC CURRENT causes heat.
Without CURRENT, you won't get heat.

The AC CURRENT is those moving trons that sometimes blast chunks out of the layer.
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[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Ripple current
In most applications, an a.c. or ripple voltage exists on top of a d.c. voltage and causes a ripple current and a self-heating of the elcap.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Hogwash

The oxide layer dissolves in storage with no voltage applied at all.
That's why caps have to be reformed.

It's a chemical reaction.
Electricity has nothing to do with it other than positioning the molecules to encourage the reaction.

.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

To dissolve oxide layer, electrolytic cap would need to be discharged and then reverse polarised. If it has DC on it it that is greater than ripple voltage that cannot be true.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

That's progress, back to this.

AC swings from positive, crosses zero then into negative.

As does Ripple.
Because Ripple is an -ALTERNATING- current. [aka AC]

Ripple is modulated voltage atop DC. It should never go to zero - such device would immediately lock up.

Wrong.
The Ripple's [aka AC's] reference voltage is the DC voltage.
To it the DC voltage -IS- zero.
- Unlike the DC voltage, the Ripple [aka AC] produces an actual current through the cap which is always ALTERNATING in direction.

When that current is going the wrong direction, the Oxide layer is on the wrong side of the Aluminum to block it so the electrons leave the plate and punch into the oxide on the Aluminum side.
Occasionally [some percentage of the time] those trons physically blow a chuck of oxide [a few molecules] out of the Oxide layer.
Those chunks get [temporarily] entangled in the paper and electrolyte chemicals and thus do not return to the hole when the AC reverses.
[That's how ripple causes damage.]
The chunk then dissolves in the electrolyte but that takes some time so those particular molecules aren't available for now.
Meanwhile, previously dissolved chunks and appropriate [same chemical as the chunks] constituents of the electrolyte are drawn into the hole by the applied DC voltage [as the molecules have a charge] and a chemical reaction occurs. A different 'set' of oxide molecules forms in the hole restoring the layer.
[That's the healing.]

.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

Nope that's not how it works with Aluminum Lytics.
Aluminum Lytics patch the weak spot in the dielectric by replacing the oxide layer.
.

That is another way of self healing.

[Pyr0Beast]

Re: KZG - KZJ - Same Electrolyte

The 1950's is when Lytics became self-healing but no one sent Pyr0Beast the memo.
Oh really. Where did I say they didn't ?