is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

[nick122]

I have a few ucc kzg 1500uf caps on my old 775 mobo. Are they compatible with nichicon hm?

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Yes.
Nichicon HM is a direct replacement for Chemicon KZG, especially the 16V 1500 uF 10x20 mm size.

Also, I see your Nichicon HM caps have a H06xx datecodes. That means they were manufactured sometimes in 2006 - which is good, because Nichicon HM and HN with datecodes between 2001-2004 and some from 2005 had problems. 2006 and newer is fine, though.

[nick122]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Thanks! I'll recap it tomorrow.

[nick122]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Also the board has a fer nichicon hn 820uf 4v next to the cpu. Their manufacturing date is a0511. Are they bad hn series nichicon manufractured back in 2004? Rest of the caps on the board are rubycon mbz.

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Also the board has a fer nichicon hn 820uf 4v next to the cpu. Their manufacturing date is a0511. Are they bad hn series nichicon manufractured back in 2004?

That's a 2005 year Nichicon, week 11.
2005 was a "transitioning" year for Nichicon HM and HN capacitors. Some caps from 2005 do end up being bad, others are okay. I think week 11 is a pretty early, so those may be more likely to have problems. I'm not an expert on this matter, though (I think Wester547 might know better... let's hope he sees this thread and chimes in.)

Rest of the caps on the board are rubycon mbz.

Those should be good.

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

I wouldn't say I know better than anyone else. My standards for "reliable cap" might be a bit more rigorous than some. Those Nichicon HNs don't have vents so I think they would be more likely to quietly dry out through the bottom rubber bung. I don't see a 680uF 4V value in the datasheet (they could be a custom order). They are in parallel with polymers so you might get away with leaving them. But if you really want to replace them, it would be interesting to see what the rubber bung actually looks like (hopefully not a concentric bung!) so as to verify the genuineness of those capacitors.

Everyone's standard for a reliable cap is bound to be different, especially since everyone has different experiences with different brands and series. Some people haven't had a problem with KZGs or Teapo, others wouldn't chance "relying" on them if their lives depended on it. The real problem with bad caps is bad QC. That's how people can have so many inconsistent experiences with them. At the very least, though, replace those KZGs. Even capacitors on the input of a buck regulator can cause irrevocable damage to whatever chip that DC-DC converter is powering if they go bad (the CPU in this case).

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

The real problem with bad caps is bad QC. That's how people can have so many inconsistent experiences with them. At the very least, though, replace those KZGs.

I agree 100%.

Even capacitors on the input of a buck regulator can cause irrevocable damage to whatever chip that DC-DC converter is powering if they go bad (the CPU in this case).

Well, this is less likely to happen to the CPU VRM, since it usually has a more advanced chip than your typical PWM controller. But I agree that capacitors on the input of a buck regulator indeed should not be deemed less important than the output.
As you know (I'm sure I mentioned it more than once ), I've had a router die from bad caps on its buck regulator input. And that's just once instance off the top of my head. Had a few other similar cases in other devices.

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

I agree 100%.


Well, this is less likely to happen to the CPU VRM, since it usually has a more advanced chip than your typical PWM controller. But I agree that capacitors on the input of a buck regulator indeed should not be deemed less important than the output.
As you know (I'm sure I mentioned it more than once ), I've had a router die from bad caps on its buck regulator input. And that's just once instance off the top of my head. Had a few other similar cases in other devices.

True. The CPU VRM should shut down in the case of a short circuit. Also, PSUs with good short circuit protection should catch that relatively quickly as well and shut down in an instant (having good overcurrent protection would help as well). It's true that CPU PWM ICs are more advanced than PWM ICs for simpler chips. I suppose it's the same for GPUs - not as likely to die as quickly as less advanced chips from bad caps on the input or output of a buck regulator. Of course that's not talking about the RAM... the RAM is much more prone to failure when buck regulator caps go bad. But CPUs are tough bastards anyway. I don't think I've ever seen one die from anything other than broken pins, bad BGA contacts, severe overvoltage, failed overclocking attempts, or from overheating for too long (rather, that's referencing very early Athlons which ran very hot). You are more likely to blow a MOSFET than a CPU when the caps go bad (since when the ESR skyrockets, the duty cycle of the MOSFETs increases until they burn out, and same goes for the coils).

The risk with capacitors on a buck regulator going bad is plummeted capacitance which ultimately results in fried chips (by way of voltage spikes) since the energy released from the inductors has nowhere to go (or rather, there's nothing standing between that energy and the ICs).

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

But CPUs are tough bastards anyway.

Yes, that's a good way to put it.

Had a Core 2 Duo withstand MOSFETs shorting on a Intel DG33TL-equivalent board multiple times. One of the phase's MOSFET drivers must have been bad (I say *must*, because they all appeared okay on my multimeter). But unfortunately, it cost me a lot of MOSFETs to realize this. Each time a FET shorted, the PSU would enter into short-circuit protection. Surprisingly, the CPU is still alive and working. I guess perhaps this is because CPUs have a low static resistance, thus keeping the power load on the CPU VRM sufficiently high regardless of CPU load. So there's always somewhere for the energy in the inductors to go, even if the caps went bad. RAM, on the other hand, ofter doesn't use much power and doesn't support much of a voltage variation. So that could well be the reason why RAM is more likely to die from a bad FET on the buck regulator circuit.

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

I guess perhaps this is because CPUs have a low static resistance, thus keeping the power load on the CPU VRM sufficiently high regardless of CPU load. So there's always somewhere for the energy in the inductors to go, even if the caps went bad.

Yup, that's Ohm's Law for you. I suppose this is the one good thing about high TDP CPUs... assuming of course those high TDP CPUs are worth anything. *cough*prescott*cough*

RAM, on the other hand, ofter doesn't use much power and doesn't support much of a voltage variation. So that could well be the reason why RAM is more likely to die from a bad FET on the buck regulator circuit.

Or from bad caps. I guess it wouldn't be such a big deal if it was Qimonda/Infineon or Buffalo RAM, or Elixir or Corsair RAM. Best to put crap brands out of their misery I suppose.

[nick122]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

It started freezing today so i decided to finally recap it. Pulled those li'l suckers out and ONLY 1 was good on esr meter. Other 3 showed 800uf instead of 1500uf and 0.5 ohm resistance. After recap it runs like charm. Can u tell which one is good and which one is bad? (pics 2 and 3 also sorry for bad focus on pic 3). Pic 5 hn from the bottom.

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

That last picture looks like a Panasonic capacitor from the bottom, not a Nichicon. A Panasonic FJ, to be meticulous. Three of the four KZGs look like they have slightly bulging bungs (picture 4). Glad to hear you fixed it.

[nick122]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Ive actually deleted that pic (idk why) so i took a pic of panny fj because its bung looks the same as nichicon hn's and those little caps are pretty hard to unsolder.

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

After recap it runs like charm.

Nice! Looks like another motherboard saved here .
Keep us posted if that really was the solution to your problem (longterm)... although with those KZGs reading nearly half their capacitance and high on ESR, I wouldn't be surprised if they have failed and caused the problems you were having.

That said, I am curious to see if these failed KZGs caps will pass the spark test - that is, charge each of the caps with a 12-15V source / power supply. Then remove the caps from the source and press both of the cap's terminals on a metal surface. If you see/hear a spark, they are either still working on not completely bad yet. But if you don't see or hear a spark, they are definitely gone. I can tell you from personal experiments that a 16V 1500 uF low ESR cap will definitely produce visible and audible sparks (but nothing loud, though).

I suppose this is the one good thing about high TDP CPUs... assuming of course those high TDP CPUs are worth anything. *cough*prescott*cough*

Hey, don't be dissin' the Prescotts! FYI, this post was brought to you by a 2.8 GHz P4 Prescott HT.

Although the single-core Prescott is rated for 89 Watts TDP, its maximum power consumption is only 100 Watts, which isn't that terrible. There are modern CPUs out there nowadays that are much more power-hungry than that - even more than the Pentium D dual-core CPUs (i.e. 2x Prescott dies). And modern GPUs? Don't even get me started on that!

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

That said, I am curious to see if these failed KZGs caps will pass the spark test - that is, charge each of the caps with a 12-15V source / power supply. Then remove the caps from the source and press both of the cap's terminals on a metal surface. If you see/hear a spark, they are either still working on not completely bad yet. But if you don't see or hear a spark, they are definitely gone. I can tell you from personal experiments that a 16V 1500 uF low ESR cap will definitely produce visible and audible sparks (but nothing loud, though).

If they read half the capacitance and 0.5Ω ESR, that tells me they're definitely goners. Although I think the highest recorded ESR reading of failed KZGs (bulging) was around 100Ω by PlainBill.

That being said, you have a point. If you go look at the UCC (not NCC) datasheets for their general purpose capacitors (85˚C or 105˚C general purpose), they actually list the highest acceptable ESR values at 120Hz and 20˚C. According to UCC, the highest acceptable ESR value for a 5x11 0.1uF 50V SMG is a whooping 1,989.0Ω ESR.

Hey, don't be dissin' the Prescotts! FYI, this post was brought to you by a 2.8 GHz P4 Prescott HT.

Although the single-core Prescott is rated for 89 Watts TDP, its maximum power consumption is only 100 Watts, which isn't that terrible. There are modern CPUs out there nowadays that are much more power-hungry than that - even more than the Pentium D dual-core CPUs (i.e. 2x Prescott dies). And modern GPUs? Don't even get me started on that!

It's more the heat output of high TDP CPUs (and GPUs) that irks me. Although I suppose that's nothing a good ghetto cooling solution can't fix around.

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Although I think the highest recorded ESR reading of failed KZGs (bulging) was around 100Ω by PlainBill.

Alright, challenge accepted.
I'll try to measure mine tomorrow and see what I get.

According to UCC, the highest acceptable ESR value for a 5x11 0.1uF 50V SMG is a whooping 1,989.0Ω ESR.

Whaaaaat!!! Might as well substitute a resistor then.

I can understand using electrolytic caps for 1 uF and above. But below that, I'd just go with polypropylene, polyester, or some other poly- cap and be done with it.

It's more the heat output of high TDP CPUs (and GPUs) that irks me. Although I suppose that's nothing a good ghetto cooling solution can't fix around.

For CPUs, I think up to 100-120 Watts is okay and not that hard to cool. Anything above that, though, will require a big heatsink with several heatpipes.

What worries me more is the difference in power consumption we see nowadays on modern CPUs: they can go from just a few Watts of power in idle mode to well over a 100 Watts during full load. That IMO is bound to create a lot of thermal stress on the die, no matter what heatsink you are using. In comparison, a good ol' Prescott doesn't have that great of a difference between idle and full load power consumption. As such, the CPU die isn't that stressed (sure it's running hot all of the time, but that's better than constant thermal cycling). So don't be surprised if you see a Pentium 4 CPU still chugging along 10-20 years from now.

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Alright, challenge accepted.
I'll try to measure mine tomorrow and see what I get.

Probably not that high. I think you would have to really cook a KZG to reach those levels of out-of-spec failure, and it doesn't take much heat (or time on the shelf) to kill KZGs.

Whaaaaat!!! Might as well substitute a resistor then.

I can understand using electrolytic caps for 1 uF and above. But below that, I'd just go with polypropylene, polyester, or some other poly- cap and be done with it.

Some of the values specified for the larger can sizes in the datasheets are more reasonable. Like 0.232Ω for a 12.5x20 1000uF 25V KME, or 0.265Ω for a 10x20 1000uF 25V KMG. Although some of the smaller values (100uF 25V and 470uF 10V) are surprisingly high (2.652Ω for a 6.3x11 100uF 25V SMG capacitor). Guess they really want to exaggerate the difference between a GP and low ESR capacitor.

For CPUs, I think up to 100-120 Watts is okay and not that hard to cool. Anything above that, though, will require a big heatsink with several heatpipes.

Maybe even water cooling. But that only works to keep the CPU cool and not the capacitors.

What worries me more is the difference in power consumption we see nowadays on modern CPUs: they can go from just a few Watts of power in idle mode to well over a 100 Watts during full load. That IMO is bound to create a lot of thermal stress on the die, no matter what heatsink you are using. In comparison, a good ol' Prescott doesn't have that great of a difference between idle and full load power consumption. As such, the CPU die isn't that stressed (sure it's running hot all of the time, but that's better than constant thermal cycling). So don't be surprised if you see a Pentium 4 CPU still chugging along 10-20 years from now.

And the difference between idle and load temperatures in Pentium III and II CPUs is even less. And they run cool as a cucumber with smaller heatsinks. No wonder they last forever.

What worries me a bit about hot-running Pentium 4 CPUs is the fact that they (Intel) specified the usage of BGA solder balls for the actual socket-to-motherboard connection. So even though the CPU itself was PGA, the connection to the PCB itself was BGA. With such hot running Pentium 4 CPUs swinging between room temperature and high temperatures (thermal cycles between the stabilized operating temperature and storage time), it was bound to cause a BGA-related failure over time. I think Kaboom had a Pentium 4 Prescott with this issue, with the crappy retention brackets on the Socket 478 heatsink exacerbating the BGA failure. I understand that all modern motherboards attach the socket to the motherboard by way of the BGA package, but I think something else will probably give out before that does... like a hot running BGA RoHS chipset.

For me, the best of the Pentium 4s was the Northwood. They didn't overclock well ("Northwood Sudden Death Syndrome") but they ran very cool and for the time were good performers.

[nick122]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

For me, the best of the Pentium 4s was the Northwood. They didn't overclock well ("Northwood Sudden Death Syndrome") but they ran very cool and for the time were good performers.

Absolutely. That mobo ^ is currently running with p4 670 3.6 ghz prescott cpu. I cant get it under 46c even in bios
. Under load its usually between 65 and 70c and thats pretty hot for a cpu. Preshot

[momaka]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Probably not that high. I think you would have to really cook a KZG to reach those levels of out-of-spec failure, and it doesn't take much heat (or time on the shelf) to kill KZGs.

Well, I only had some bulged 6.3V 3300 uF KZG caps to test, and from those, one of them read 150 Ohms on my transistor tester's ESR function. But I think 150 Ohms is the max ESR that the transistor tester can measure anyways, because I tried a bunch of failed Sacon FZ caps, and those also appeared with the same exact ESR of 150 Ohms. When I tested these caps with the auto-test/detect feature on the transistor tester, the transistor tester couldn't even decide what kind of parts they were, often showing "No, unknown, or damaged part". So there is actually a possibility that these caps were open-circuit. But from the 10 or so KZGs I tested, only one showed that 150-Ohm ESR on the trans. tester. The other ones had anywhere between 1 and 4 Ohms ESR and 1/5 to 1/2 of the printed capacitance.

And the difference between idle and load temperatures in Pentium III and II CPUs is even less. And they run cool as a cucumber with smaller heatsinks. No wonder they last forever.

Yeah, Pentium 3 CPUs are wonderful.
AMD Athlon XP CPUs also have very little difference between idle and load. But they don't run that cool, though, due to higher TDP.

What worries me a bit about hot-running Pentium 4 CPUs is the fact that they (Intel) specified the usage of BGA solder balls for the actual socket-to-motherboard connection. So even though the CPU itself was PGA, the connection to the PCB itself was BGA. With such hot running Pentium 4 CPUs swinging between room temperature and high temperatures (thermal cycles between the stabilized operating temperature and storage time), it was bound to cause a BGA-related failure over time.

Well, not really, because even if the CPU runs hot, the thermal contact between the CPU pins and the CPU socket isn't that great.
Also, there are a few motherboards out there with thru-hole CPUs sockets (like my ECS P4VXA-SD2+).

Now what is worrisome about those BGA sockets is that they get quite abused by the crappy design of Intel's heatsink retention mechanism - it often put so much pressure on the motherboards that they warp quite badly under the CPU socket. What I do with those is typically just sand/grind down the lobes on the plastic tension handles. That way the heatsink isn't so tight anymore.

but I think something else will probably give out before that does... like a hot running BGA RoHS chipset.

Exactly.
You're much more likely to see the chipset BGA fail than the CPU socket BGA.

Absolutely. That mobo ^ is currently running with p4 670 3.6 ghz prescott cpu. I cant get it under 46c even in bios
. Under load its usually between 65 and 70c and thats pretty hot for a cpu. Preshot

Well, that's a 115 Watt TDP CPU, so those temperatures are about right with a small stock heatsink. Speaking of which, what kind of heatsink are you using and what is your room's ambient temperature? A CPU like that needs a serious heatsink to stay cool.

[Wester547]

Re: is nichicon hm compatible with ucc kzg?

Well, I only had some bulged 6.3V 3300 uF KZG caps to test, and from those, one of them read 150 Ohms on my transistor tester's ESR function. But I think 150 Ohms is the max ESR that the transistor tester can measure anyways, because I tried a bunch of failed Sacon FZ caps, and those also appeared with the same exact ESR of 150 Ohms. When I tested these caps with the auto-test/detect feature on the transistor tester, the transistor tester couldn't even decide what kind of parts they were, often showing "No, unknown, or damaged part". So there is actually a possibility that these caps were open-circuit. But from the 10 or so KZGs I tested, only one showed that 150-Ohm ESR on the trans. tester. The other ones had anywhere between 1 and 4 Ohms ESR and 1/5 to 1/2 of the printed capacitance.

Wow, 150Ω.

The electrolyte must be all but gone and/or dried up as it turned from liquid to gas. I would guess that they are completely open (infinite resistance). I wonder how hot those KZGs ran. Then again, the 3300uF 6.3V and 11.5mm high 820uF 6.3V KZGs seem to be the worst of them.

It would be interesting to see how high ESR KZGs could become without going completely open.

Yeah, Pentium 3 CPUs are wonderful.
AMD Athlon XP CPUs also have very little difference between idle and load. But they don't run that cool, though, due to higher TDP.

True. But any CPU could eventually die from excessive heat.

Well, not really, because even if the CPU runs hot, the thermal contact between the CPU pins and the CPU socket isn't that great.
Also, there are a few motherboards out there with thru-hole CPUs sockets (like my ECS P4VXA-SD2+).

I was more referencing the hottest of the Prescotts and Pentium Ds - those could eventually run hot enough to break the BGA socket. I suppose a BGA socket could survive with a Northwood or even a Willamette, though. I recall that particular board was fitted with OST RLX and G-Luxon LZ (and SM) capacitors from the factory - a surefire recipe for premature failure with those stock parts.