Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

[unmei220]

Hello guys.
I recently purchased 12 Panasonic FL caps through eBay, from member PCMCS (egekecu) which I "thought" was a "trusted" seller...
This is the link of the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=300355937594
Upon receiving the envelope and after opened it, I found that not all the 12 caps were the same. There were 5 odd looking ones...
Are these caps fake ? On the pics, the two ones on the left looks ok to me, the ones on the right are the suspect ones. What do you think...? All the caps in the photos are from inside the envelope.
Thanks.

[mockingbird]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

This guy is said to have only legitimate product, but there's a reason why I never buy this stuff from eBay... You never know what the chain of supply is like you do with an established company. I would say they're not fake, just probably from different batches, but someone else with more experience may be able to elaborate better.

[unmei220]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Thanks. I'll wait for another reply then...
It also seems weird to me, as this seller seemed to be very "trusted" among eBay, at least from posts I read here at badcaps, but those caps looks really odd...

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

They are not fake.

Just a mix of different date codes. - Almost a year apart.
.
And Panasonic DOES have more than one factory you know...
They may not have come from the same one.
.

[unmei220]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Doesn't the bungs look weird ? I thought Panasonic ones are like the first two capacitors in the pics. What does that date code with the inverted triangle at the end could possibly mean ?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Doesn't the bungs look weird ?

No. Not weird.
They look different form each other,,, like different production runs,,,
Not even unusual with caps that far apart in manufacture date.

What does that date code with the inverted triangle at the end could possible mean ?

It's the week.
The first digit is the year, second is the month.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...09&postcount=4

You have caps from June 2004 and Sept 2003 and they may not have come from the same Panasonic factory.
- But they ARE legit Panasonic caps.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Do you have an ESR meter?

There is no known Data Sheet for FL so it would be interesting & helpful if you measured their ESR after you reform them.
.

[unmei220]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

I'm planning to buy one, but don't have one right now, sorry.
Thanks for the explanation about the datecodes. I still don't know what that inverted triangle means, as there's no explanation for it in the thread you pointed me to. There should be a letter (A-Z) there...

EDIT: I guess it's not a "triangle" but supposed to be a V.

EDIT2: The ones with the red datecode seems to be taller than the other ones. Is that normal ?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

I'm planning to buy one, but don't have one right now, sorry.
Thanks for the explanation about the datecodes. I still don't know what that inverted triangle means, as there's no explanation for it in the thread you pointed me to. There should be a letter (A-Z) there...

EDIT: I guess it's not a "triangle" but supposed to be a V.

EDIT2: The ones with the red datecode seems to be taller than the other ones. Is that normal ?

Your caps have the 5-digit code.
The last one in the link is the only one with 5-digits.
It says they are Greek numbers.
I'm not too fluent in Greek numbers.
Not that I'd care what week or day they were made anyway.... LOL

Minor size variations from run to run is normal just like bung variations.
Also won't be exactly the same from two different factories.
Entirely possible the height difference is due to the different bungs.

You really need to stop sweating this.
They are legit.
.

[Rob Northen]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

No. Not weird.
They look different form each other,,, like different production runs,,,
Not even unusual with caps that far apart in manufacture date.


It's the week.
The first digit is the year, second is the month.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...09&postcount=4

You have caps from June 2004 and Sept 2003 and they may not have come from the same Panasonic factory.
- But they ARE legit Panasonic caps.
.

That sounds like quite old caps. I think I once read that caps should not be stored more than 2 years ?

[goodpsusearch]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

http://www.downloadalanguage.com/dow..._Numerals.html

Five = V

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

That sounds like quite old caps. I think I once read that caps should not be stored more than 2 years ?

You heard that from someone that sells caps, didn't ya...

Do you think if you leave an old radio [or whatever] in your garage for two years it won't work anymore because the caps were stored too long?

.

[Rob Northen]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

You heard that from someone that sells caps, didn't ya...

Do you think if you leave an old radio [or whatever] in your garage for two years it won't work anymore because the caps were stored too long?

.

Taken from Elna also seen in a Nichicon datasheet:

8. Changes in aluminum electrolytic capacitors
during storage.
After storage for a long period, whether unused of
mounted on the appliance, the leakage current of an
aluminum electrolytic capacitor will increase. This
tendency is more prominent when the ambient temperature
is high. If a capacitor has been stored for
more than 2 years under normal temperature (shorter
if high temperature) and it shows increased leakage
current, a treatment by voltage application is recommended.
Addition of a protective circuit in the design
of the appliance is also recommended, considering
the effect of the initial increased current.

And no, of course i think if you stor any cap for more than 2 years it will break down

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Clue: Nichicon and Elna sell capacitors.
That's a general statement they have to make for liability reasons.
It says >> 2 years -and- shows increased leakage current <<.
And 'general' considers concerns for low volt caps [<16v] the same as for 450v caps, and they aren't.
Also 'general' has to consider every possible application and take the worst case.

Shelf life 'aging' has to do with the oxide layer [which is the actual dielectric] dissolving back into the the electrolyte and becoming thinner.
-
Applying DC voltage causes the oxide layer to thicken again through what amounts to electrolysis [hence 'electrolytic' capacitor]. It is the leakage current that allows that to happen. The thicker the layer gets the less leakage current there will be and eventually an equilibrium thickness and leakage is reached based on the applied voltage.
[This is why Aluminum electrolytic caps were called 'Self Healing" in the old days.]
-
Possible problem 1: If the layer becomes too thin in storage then when the DC is first applied the leakage current through the oxide layer will be so high as to damage the layer vice rebuild it. [That's not very likely at the low voltages seen in most electronics unless the caps are really really old. High voltage industrial equipment might be a different story.]
-
Possible problem 2: The initial high leakage current mucks up the circuit operation. I think that is what the 2 years is based on but most circuits aren't that sensitive to leakage and/or have other devices that that deliberately or inadvertently act as current limiters. Additionally the layer rebuilds quickly [minutes, an hour] anyway so after the device has been 'on' for a short time the cap's oxide layer is fully restored.
[Also if you think about the only ill effect of high DC leakage current in a filter cap is a tiny bit more load on the power supply untl the oxide layer builds back up. It's still going to filter ripple.]


-

There is a procedure called 'reforming' that restores the oxide layer in old electrolytic caps.
It amounts to applying a small DC voltage [through a current limiting resistor] and every few minutes raising the voltage a volt or two until it gets to the rated voltage.
Once at the rated voltage it is left there for some time based on how old the caps is.
- There are MANY different versions of the procedure and they all have different recommended times and voltage steps.
I would say 5 minutes at each voltage step then 10 minutes at rated voltage per year of age is in the ball park for most versions.
If it's a 16v or less cap I'll do 1v steps, 25-50v 2v steps, over that probably 5v steps but I haven't been there yet.
[Doing a 400v cap 1v at a time would be a little silly.]

At this point I've used caps as much as 10 years old without reforming and I've yet to have a problem.
[That would be in 12v or less circuits BTW.]
Not recommending that, just saying sometimes I'm too lazy to do a reform and thus far it hasn't bit me.
.

[TheLaw]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Usually if they are fake, they wouldn't bother etching the weird red date codes into them like that. The bung is a genuine Panasonic bung, and not one of those cheap swirl-jobs. The printing is right. The gold is the right color. They are a little "worn" looking, but that might just be because you are zoomed in so much.

Either these are reaaally good fakes, or more likely, they are genuine.

[TheLaw]

Re: Fake Panasonic FL caps ?

Well I could only locate 3 Panasonics in my entire stash...I must have used them or something. All of the have the bung of the first 2 caps. But I still think they are real.