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Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough?

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    #1

    Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough?

    While watching a Defcon video on YouTube concerning decapping ICs, I discovered that x-rays can be used for inspection. This search started because I have a few ICs I was going to decap so I could try to identify them, as they've had their numbers ground off. Well, now I'm thinking about all the times I was unsure of whether an IC was bad or not and thinking this would be very useful for troubleshooting, if it works. Below is a link to one on eBay for under $500, but I'm wondering if it would be good enough. Thoughts?


    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Dent...kAAOSwf-VWYp5R
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    #2
    Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

    Originally posted by lookimback View Post
    While watching a Defcon video on YouTube concerning decapping ICs, I discovered that x-rays can be used for inspection. This search started because I have a few ICs I was going to decap so I could try to identify them, as they've had their numbers ground off. Well, now I'm thinking about all the times I was unsure of whether an IC was bad or not and thinking this would be very useful for troubleshooting, if it works. Below is a link to one on eBay for under $500, but I'm wondering if it would be good enough. Thoughts?


    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Dent...kAAOSwf-VWYp5R
    monitor your radiation exposure whatever you do. i've played in the pixie dance what is radiation before, anything from UV to gamma! Luckily the worst that has happened to me is an arc jumping from the cap of an x ray tube with a bad filament.
    Things I've fixed: anything from semis to crappy Chinese $2 radios, and now an IoT Dildo....

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      #3
      Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

      Originally posted by goontron View Post
      monitor your radiation exposure whatever you do. i've played in the pixie dance what is radiation before, anything from UV to gamma! Luckily the worst that has happened to me is an arc jumping from the cap of an x ray tube with a bad filament.
      Yes, good idea. I don't have any kids yet, and probably want some someday. I was actually thinking about making a lead lined box and having the X-ray imaging equipment permanently set up in it. Then I'd just put the IC, or entire board, into position and actuate it remotely. It also looks like the device I linked isn't really digital. It still takes the x-ray film. But, there are digital x-ray imagers which could be used in conjunction with this. I'd expect it to cost about $1500 total then. Still, very much worth it if it's something which would probably be used daily.
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        #4
        Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

        X-ray is great for inspecting BGA balls but I can't see too much use outside of that field unless you just like looking at things with X-rays (it is quite beautiful and I know a guy who has an airport X-ray scanner in his "lab" which he got for £200 on a scrap auction site.) I doubt you'll be able to see scratched off numbers, and the numbers on the die of the chips will be tiny - a couple micrometres across - far too small for this to image.

        Also, I presume it images onto film, as I doubt they have an X-ray image sensor in a $500 device. If so, what is the cost of the film? Is it easy to acquire and develop the film?

        Finally, I would note that if I were you I'd be very cautious around X-rays. Lead shielding is expensive, so it's quite likely this doesn't have much, or any, in it. As X-rays are ionising radiation they present an increased risk of cancer. The risk is very low and eating about 50 bananas will give you the same dose (due to potassium in the banana) but that does depend on the device operating within normal parameters of "Dental X-ray". It is more than possible this device can output a lot more X-rays than a normal dental X-ray and it is also possible the radiation could be exposed onto more sensitive areas (eyes, thin skull areas, etc.)

        https://xkcd.com/radiation/
        Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
        For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

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          #5
          Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

          It does require film, but for about $1000 more, I could get a digital imaging system so I wouldn't need the film and developing equipment then. I definitely wouldn't do this outside of a lead lined cabinet. What about the likelihood of identifying a defective IC? Wouldn't I be able to see if the bond wires or other internal circuitry was damaged?
          Last edited by lookimback; 01-01-2016, 06:21 PM.
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            #6
            Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

            This is what I'd be hoping for.
            Attached Files
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              #7
              Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

              Originally posted by lookimback View Post
              It does require film, but for about $1000 more, I could get a digital imaging system so I wouldn't need the film and developing equipment then. I definitely wouldn't do this outside of a lead lined cabinet. What about the likelihood of identifying a defective IC? Wouldn't I be able to see if the bond wires or other internal circuitry was damaged?
              Bond wires - probably - depending on the resolution. Failure of bond wires is usually seen when there are holes in the package. If you ever see a burn in a corner of an IC, that's a bond wire that's evaporated under high current.

              As for the IC itself I think you may have difficulty determining if a failure exists except for obvious failures that would typically show themselves on the external packaging.

              Remember this device is designed to image people. So I am not sure you will get the resolution you are looking for. And you can buy a lot of other tools for $1,500. I'm not convinced myself that it will be useful. My two pence...
              Last edited by tom66; 01-01-2016, 06:37 PM.
              Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
              For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

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                #8
                Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

                i actually doubt a medical xray unit has the ability to focus down on something as small as a chip, so the overall resolution is wasted even if it was high.
                i doubt you can make out bond wires on a die with one.

                before spending money, do a test.
                pay a dentist or vet to xray a chip for you - see what you get.

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                  #9
                  Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

                  btw, id-ing unmarked chips is done by looking at which pins carry power and so on to narrow it down.

                  microcontrollers are good, you look at the power pins, the pins the crystal connects with etc.

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                    #10
                    Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

                    I definitely appreciate the input. I can get a lot of other stuff for $1500. It's not worth it if it won't do what I want. I really expected failures would be blatant. I suppose once I learn to use my scope effectively, I'll be able to troubleshoot ICs that way anyway. I'll probably go back to studying decapping, but there's a lot of danger involved in that. I won't attempt it without all the proper equipment, including a fume cabinet. Nitric and hydrofluoric acids are not something to play with.
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                      #11
                      Re: Using x-rays for IC inspection. Think these portable dental units are good enough

                      You can use the portable dental x rays unit of others to have a try.
                      Maybe it is suitable for you.

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