Something is short on my van, but what?

[CapLeaker]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

hot temps, batteries sulfate real fast.

[petehall347]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

i once heard in countries like africa they use a weaker acid solution because of the constant warm temperature and no chance of freezing and this making the batteries last much longer

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

i once heard in countries like africa they use a weaker acid solution because of the constant warm temperature and no chance of freezing and this making the batteries last much longer

Yes. Lowering the concentration increases battery life -- at the expense of capacity.

The old-fashioned "emergency lights" (with the big, transparent, lead acid batteries) were used like this.

(Note that emergency lighting is typically installed indoors -- no temperature extremes!)

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

how much longer is 'much longer'?

Diluting the electrolyte, if you can have a reservoir to keep enough sulfate ions around will end up increasing ESR of the battery. If the same volume of liquid is kept as before, capacity will be lost. In a lead acid cell, electrolyte is a reactant.

[stj]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

so the solution is to return to what Jaguar and Rover used to do and fit a sealed battery box in the trunk.
most custom/performance shops sell battery boxes for this purpose.

btw, in europe most vans and the PT-cruiser all mount the battery under the seat inside the cabin.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

so the solution is to return to what Jaguar and Rover used to do and fit a sealed battery box in the trunk.
most custom/performance shops sell battery boxes for this purpose.

btw, in europe most vans and the PT-cruiser all mount the battery under the seat inside the cabin.

How big are the engines? How many CCA required? Note that a van's engine is, already, ALMOST *in* the passenger compartment.

Moving the battery means lengthening the wire to the biggest load in the vehicle -- the starter. That means increasing the wire gauge (or, expecting the starter to operate at a lower voltage/higher current).

It also places the "mess" that is traditionally associated with battery maintenance in a place that has historically been "kept reasonably clean".

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

how much longer is 'much longer'?

Diluting the electrolyte, if you can have a reservoir to keep enough sulfate ions around will end up increasing ESR of the battery. If the same volume of liquid is kept as before, capacity will be lost. In a lead acid cell, electrolyte is a reactant.

Acid corrodes. The more aggressive the acid, the more aggressive the corrosion.

Batteries are chemistry, not "electronics". So, considerably more sensitive to their operating conditions (you can't just "put a bigger heatsink/fan" to solve SOA issues). If you have to tolerate very low temperatures (chicago winters), the battery appears to shrink by a factor of four (the chemistry slows and the mechanical load gets larger). So, there's little value in trying to increase the battery's life by DECREASING its capacity! (unless you like jump-starting your car in cold weather)

CAR batteries are relatively inexpensive and inexpensive to install/replace. They also see a fair bit of EXPECTED wear. Contrast with "emergency lighting" that often sits UNCHALLENGED for years at a time! And, with much higher replacement/servicing/failure costs (it's not like you can hope that the NEXT power outage you'll be back on top of your game -- unlike starting the car, tomorrow!!)

Applications that really try to get the best performance/longevity out of a battery include things like (legacy) submarines, CO "battery", etc. There's very little incentive for a car manufacturer to have their batteries last any longer!

The same argument applies to batteries in UPSs; the manufacturer wants you to be able to QUICKLY recover from an outage -- even if that comes at the expense of having to replace batteries more often (you've likely got STAFF that can do that for you!)

[stj]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

How big are the engines? How many CCA required? Note that a van's engine is, already, ALMOST *in* the passenger compartment.

i have not seen a van with an underfloor engine in europe for years - only mercedes did that here anyway.
probably for safety, engines are always ahead of the firewall.

Moving the battery means lengthening the wire to the biggest load in the vehicle -- the starter. That means increasing the wire gauge

so??

why do you always post dismissive responses to people?

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Moving the battery means lengthening the wire to the biggest load in the vehicle -- the starter. That means increasing the wire gauge

so??

It increases cost. You do realize the difference in wire lengths required to get a battery into the "trunk"/boot vs. keeping it under the hood, a couple of wire-feet from the starter AND alternator?

Have you any FIRST HAND experience designing high volume items for the consumer market? If so, then you'd realize that FRACTIONAL PENNIES are considered when evaluating solutions.

Why are batteries so many different SIZES -- instead of standardized and sized for the largest vehicle? (surely the smallest vehicle could be made to accommodate such an oversized battery! and, it would benefit from having more reserve capacity)

Why aren't all vehicles equipped with sun/moon roofs? Power seats -- driver side AND passenger side? "Navigation"? Cruise control? Surely the manufacturer would save by not having to make so many different versions of EACH vehicle! And, car salesmen would have less "selling" to do!

why do you always post dismissive responses to people?

It's a simple FACT. Does it hurt your feelings if I say "The Sky is Blue"? Or, "2+2=4"?

Stop being a f*cking pussy, for christ's sake!

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

hot temps, batteries sulfate real fast.

Yup. Especially important to make sure electrolyte level is "up" to keep the plates COMPLETELY covered.

I used to get 6-8 years out of a (good) battery living in colder climates. So, when I'd have starting problems in ~3 years, it was a crap shoot as to whether the problem was the battery or alternator (I had one vehicle that would routinely blow the diodes in the alternator so learned early on to check THAT before screwing with anything else).

Here, it's easier just to pull the battery a month before the prorated portion of the warranty kicks in and bring it in for a replacement. Folks look at the date and don't even bother to bench/load test it.

I've not had to BUY a battery in close to 30 years using this approach.

[Of course, folks who need to hire someone to replace the battery end up having to incur THAT cost.]

[dicky96]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

i have not seen a van with an underfloor engine in europe for years - only mercedes did that here anyway.
probably for safety, engines are always ahead of the firewall.

But as I mentioned earlier my Nissan Vanette Cargo 2.3D has a mid-mounted engine under the front seats. There are loads of those vans on the roads here, there is not a day I go driving without seeing at least one other, and usually several more than that. The bonnet (hood to some of you) just has the radiator, spare wheel and battery/fusebox.

Last time I checked we are in Europe (and in the EU single market/shengen zone but not the customs union)

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

So nobody knows how much longer? And what's the concentration needed to make a difference, assuming normal charged battery acid is around 30%?

Is it worth it if you live in a hot environment, simply draw out some acid from your battery and refill with some deionized water, instant reduction in acid concentration - reduction of battery capacity and increase of ESR. However if you're in a warm environment, reaction speeds and lower motor oil viscosity due to temperature should allow you to start even with a compromised battery.

Also not considered is if you do discharge the battery all the way, if the sulfuric acid is the limiting reagent, you'll end up with a really watery battery that cannot be recharged - forced to add more acid back to get it to conduct once more. Another drawback is with a more dilute mixture, the boiling point is lower, and water will be lost to evaporation faster, and if not refilled in time, also contributes to sulfation.

[stj]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

It increases cost. !

they dont give a fuck about cost - it's just past on,
do you know how much all that fucking plastic they put under the hood to just pretty stuff up costs?

there is no need to have a plastic shell over the engine complete with silver screen-print just to make it look better.
it just fucks people off when they have to change the plugs/leads

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

they dont give a fuck about cost - it's just past on,
do you know how much all that fucking plastic they put under the hood to just pretty stuff up costs?

Wow, your ignorance is really showing. Have you ever sat in a meeting with "Marketing" and "Manufacturing" trying to decide which features -- and at which costs -- to include in a product offering? Having to justify your reasons for wanting to include a particular feature/capability if it increases cost in any RECURRING manner? (NRE at many firms is often treated as a "cost of doing business" so, unless a feature adds a sh*tload of NRE, that cost is largely ignored).

By your reasoning, auto manufacturers should include EVERY option in EVERY vehicle sale and just "pass it on", right?

Why aren't ALL cars -- by all manufacturers -- made the same? Why so much PRICE VARIATION? You'd almost think CONSUMERS care about what they PAY for a product!!! And, that VENDORS care about their PROFIT MARGINS!!

Why does any manufacturer put crappy caps in a product? Why not put The Best and just "pass on" the costs for that?

The plastic engine cover isn't there SOLELY to "pretty things up". It also keeps folks away from moving parts as well as discouraging idle tinkering ("No, you don't need to dick with anything UNDER this if the car won't start!"). It also reduces engine noise (as more the more and more common 4-bangers rev higher) and keeping the hood cooler. In some designs, it supports the plug wires (instead of some OTHER piece of "useless"? plastic intended for that purpose). In cold climates, it helps capture heat to faciltate starting (instead of just relying on ducting heat off the exhaust manifold into the carburetor -- and the inevitable loss and misinstallation of that heat riser!)

When listed as a spare part, it is often called a "thermal acoustic cover".

From "Automotive materials: an experimental investigation of an engine bay
acoustic performances":

"Nowadays, the acoustic comfort of a vehicle represents one of the most important aspects of overall quality, since it considerably affects customer’s impression and judgment about. In the field of vehicle acoustic, although exterior noise plays a significant role, the major focus is on interior noise which is influenced by many sources. Of course, the engine and powertrain act as one of the primary excitation sources, together with road noise and wind noise. Hence, in the last years, many car manufacturers are investing in technologies able to provide noise and vibration control from the engine compartment to the passenger cabin. With this regard, proper sound treatments are developed in order to reduce vehicle interior noise and improve
occupants comfort."

Do you think folks actually make purchase decisions based on how "cool" the engine cover looks on vehicle A vs. vehicle B? Why not paint every hose a DIFFERENT bright color? And, install a AROMA DISPENSER to coerce the potential buyer into having "good feelings" about the vehicle while it's sitting in the showroom?

After all, they can PASS ON the costs of all of these things, right?

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

So nobody knows how much longer? And what's the concentration needed to make a difference, assuming normal charged battery acid is around 30%?

You can codify EXACTLY the operating and charging conditions (current, voltage, temperature, time) FOR A PARTICULAR BATTERY (chemistry as well as manufacturer/model) and get a reasonably good idea of how much a given change in specific gravity is likely to give you in terms of "replacement frequency" -- for a price! :> (we went through several iterations with the contractor before coming up with a "reasonable compromise" that balanced all of our concerns)

There are significant consequences for the BMS -- the sorts of issues you'll not see addressed in a "starter battery" application in a low-cost, "consumer" application (e.g., automobile). How often are you loading the battery? How deeply? How aggressively recharging? Floated while parked in the garage? What is the BATTERY's temperature? How well is the electrolyte mixing (stratification from charging/discharging)?

But, change any of those conditions and the results can change significantly! For example, a battery sitting indoors, between 65 and 90 degrees (F) with a continual float charge and very infrequent, modest calls for power will have an entirely different lifespan from one installed in an electric forklift that sees frequent deep discharges with sporadic (relative to discharges) recharging.

"High output" batteries are often operated at a (charged) specific gravity of ~1.285 (some even higher -- if you don't mind reduced battery life). "Long life" batteries as low as ~1.200. Small changes in specific gravity can make a big difference. And, of course, there are tradeoffs for each end of the spectrum. Acid corrodes (esp the positive plate -- think O2). The more acidic, the greater the corrosive effect.

If you want figures for your specific application, you'll have to codify it, first.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

I guess since not a peep out of anyone about dilution, it's merely hearsay/feels good/seems legit kind of thing with no scientific studies at all, much like a lot of news these days. Not even for any conditions the experimenter chooses, regardless whether someone else may have the same conditions. Maybe it's only like another few percent of service life and people are just feeling good that they may have increased the service life and did not count the additional watering needed due to the higher evaporation rate...

sigh.

[petehall347]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

when i read about it there wasn't any technical data to support it . whilst we are on flooded batteries they used to have wood cases and in winter you would fully charge it then pull out the plates and wash them in water then hang to dry for putting back in service in the spring . i actually remember seeing wood cased batteries at the farm i was mainly brought up on .

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

I guess since not a peep out of anyone about dilution, it's merely hearsay/feels good/seems legit kind of thing with no scientific studies at all, much like a lot of news these days. Not even for any conditions the experimenter chooses, regardless whether someone else may have the same conditions. Maybe it's only like another few percent of service life and people are just feeling good that they may have increased the service life and did not count the additional watering needed due to the higher evaporation rate...

sigh.

As I said, CODIFY your environment and you can get REAL numbers as to what EACH factor contributes to battery life. You think it can all be distilled to a simple rule-of-thumb; it can't.

HIRE someone if you really want hard data -- the sort of data that you can put into contractual form and use to litigate for losses. That's what WE did!

"Letting air out of tires improves traction in snow". Really? How MUCH? Give me a number -- without regard for any other issues that might also affect it. I'll wait...

[petehall347]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

i believe alternators kill batteries faster than dynamos . trouble is with dynamos you have to keep an eye on the amp meter . like my old kit car i turn lights off and heater off if driving slowly or ticking over .

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

when i read about it there wasn't any technical data to support it . whilst we are on flooded batteries they used to have wood cases and in winter you would fully charge it then pull out the plates and wash them in water then hang to dry for putting back in service in the spring . i actually remember seeing wood cased batteries at the farm i was mainly brought up on .

You won't get "technical data" because there are too many degrees of freedom to put it into context. And, manufacturers want to only nail down the minimum number of items that they think absolutely need to be specified (cuz these represent a contract, of sorts, with the designers).

How are you charging? What is the load characteristic? How often are you discharging? What's the BATTERY temperature? Are the plates solid lead? etc.

Look at ANY datasheet. How many omit min and max values for KEY parameters? Instead, they show "typ" numbers. If you design under that assumption and your products fail, the liability is yours alone -- the manufacturer of the component didn't give you any hard numbers. If you insist on "worst case" parameterization, then you either find a vendor who codifies that parameter or PAY to get it "guaranteed" (often by testing at the manufacturers factory).

The original DRAM devices (1Kb, 4Kb, 16Kb, 64Kb, etc.) had to be refreshed with external circuitry. The manufacturer would specify a maximum refresh interval (typ 2ms). But, anyone with ANY experience knew that this was just a cover-their-ass figure; you could often operate the memories at much longer refresh intervals and not lose any data! However, if you designed with that as a basic assumption, the fault was yours if some particular batch of chips failed to retain data reliably, under those conditions. "Ah, your device was operating at 30C, thus failed!"

MOST customers could/would live with the published specifications. Customers who wanted to operate in more specialized environments could get better specifications for the same product -- by operating ONLY in those particular restricted constraints.

If you're a big enough customer (or pay out-of-pocket), you can get the manufacturer's assurances -- in writing -- that the device will perform as you want when operated outside the normal operating conditions as long as it is operated within YOUR SPECIFIC operating conditions.

"Want a battery to last 20 years? No problem. Here's a list of things that you have to do for this particular battery make/model..." Try to do the same things with someone else's battery (different manufacturing process) and all bets are off.