Acer AL2416W

[BShanahan14rulz]

(I had posted this as a reply to the Acer 1916W thread, retiredcaps kindly informed me that it would be more polite to create my own thread, so here it is. Badcaps, I have quoted your reply in the other thread and can remove it if need be. Right now, I will search for ripple and ESR specifications of the original caps in order to find a suitable replacement, as RetiredCaps' link suggested)

Howdy all,

I have an acer 2416W, same problem. Inverter board has 10 NKCON electrolytics, 4 of which are blown. I plan to replace all 10, just to be sure.

From what I've found here, NKCON is taiwanese maker: Nakama.

My particular caps read 35V 100uF and are labeled F2056 and EVL. Same dimension ratio, color scheme, and failure mode (top vent fine, bottom plug popping out) as those in this post: https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpos...7&postcount=88
Still haven't found a datasheet, but I'll keep looking.

Mine has 6 CCFL tubes, with a total 12 transformers all lined up in a row, very nice board layout, made by TDK. PN: TBD292LF You may have a similar board.

So, on to replacement.
I've read that I'm fine with any capacitor 35V and above, but that I should try to match the capacity, which was 100uF. My question is, are there any other specs I need to match, and how do I know what they are? I've seen ESR referenced, some kind of equivalent resistance value? How do I know what ESR would be best?

I'm very excited to be a member here, and I love the fix it yourself mentality, especially when one can get nice stuff for free that just needs new caps!

Well, off to do more reading! Thanks for any help you may have for my situation, and I hope I am not intruding too much in the OP's thread. After reading it, it looks like the OP and I have the same problem, more or less.

I have an acer 2416W, same problem. Inverter board has 10 NKCON electrolytics, 4 of which are blown. I plan to replace all 10, just to be sure.

Since this is a different model number, I suggest you start or ask the mods to move this to its own thread. It is keeping track of all the details when there is more than one model in the same thread.

Yes, replace them all since 40% of them are obviously bad.

My particular caps read 35V 100uF and are labeled F2056 and EVL.

I've read that I'm fine with any capacitor 35V and above, but that I should try to match the capacity, which was 100uF. My question is, are there any other specs I need to match, and how do I know what they are?

Yes, you should try to match capacitance.

PCBONEZ always recommends looking at the old cap datasheet and then finding same or better characteristics. See his post at

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...47&postcount=3

Edit: your search for replacement caps might lead you to this (make sure dimensions are okay)

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...name=P10294-ND

for $2.14 total in caps.

I happened to end up at that panasonic capacitor yesterday when I was browsing digikey!

That link to PCBONEZ' post, just what I was looking for, thanks RetiredCaps!
I'll be looking for a datasheet today and I'll post my findings here.

[lucky13]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Panasonic FM or FC caps are very good choice.

You can beat yourself to death by looking for the same or exact spec replacement cap or just pick one of the Panny FM caps (my fav now).

As long as it will fit, go for it!

[jetadm123]

Re: Acer AL2416W

I agree with lucky13 that the panny caps are a good choice. If you look at the following thread, there's are many different favorites among the forum members:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ded+capacitors

Your head is going to hurt trying to compare all the different specs from the various manufacturers. Besides, there are those that believe some of specs listed are probably unrealistic (sorta like the EPA mileage standards for cars!)

Here's are instructions on how to use the digikey website to select your caps. You can also use it to select other brands:


1) Go to digikey.com

2) In the "parts search" window type: panasonic fm and select "GO" button

3) Under the Capacitor heading select "Aluminum"

4) The first two columns you see are capacitance and voltage. Highlight the value and voltage with your mouse and select the "Apply Filters" button

5) You'll see several selections available. Here's what to look for:


a) Look at the quantity available and minimum purchase. If "0" are available, then there's none to purchase.

Some selections require a minumum purchase of a 1000 units, which you also don't want. I think you get the picture.

b) Size and diameter. Measure the original caps and compare to what's listed.


6) If your value is out of stock, go back to the beginning and type in "panasonic fc" and go through the same process.

7) During the checkout process select USPS First Class shipping, since this will give the best ship rate.

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

So as long as the ripple response and ESR is equal to or better than the original component, and the capacity is the same, and the voltage is greater than or equal to the original, I should be fine? Somewhere I saw a post showing how awful the ESR and ripple response for these bad caps (pre-fail) are compared to good name-brands, so if this is the case, I should be fine with picking a name-brand with the same specs as what I had before? I will order some new caps next week from digikey, and hopefully have some time to install them soon.

I can't edit my original post, but here is another of the same, but this person has some good info in case my FETs turn out to be bad too. Right now, though, I have no reason to suspect that they are. This monitor only just recently started failing, and we took it out of service.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9626

I'd also like to thank, again, retiredCaps, who told me how to test the FETs to ensure that they are ok, in this post:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...3&postcount=11

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Lucky13 and adm123,

Thanks for your suggestions. I was going crazy. It seemed like I had found that I needed a 35V 100uF cap. Then I hear about ripple response and start looking for something to match. In that process I notice ESR ratings. I did see a post somewhere stating that name-brand caps like rubycon, panasonic, etc., have drastically better specs than the mystery caps with no informations, like these NKCON caps... I've decided. I will get some panasonic caps of the best line I can find.

Thanks again for your inputs!

[PlainBill]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Lucky13 and adm123,

Thanks for your suggestions. I was going crazy. It seemed like I had found that I needed a 35V 100uF cap. Then I hear about ripple response and start looking for something to match. In that process I notice ESR ratings. I did see a post somewhere stating that name-brand caps like rubycon, panasonic, etc., have drastically better specs than the mystery caps with no informations, like these NKCON caps... I've decided. I will get some panasonic caps of the best line I can find.

Thanks again for your inputs!

Where are you located? If you are in the US, follow jetadm123's instructions and buy from Digikey.

Not all capacitors are created the same!!! Panasonic FC and a Lelon RXA series caps may have the same specs and performance when new. After several years of use in a monitor the Panasonic will still be good, the Lelon will have failed. A Panasonic HFQ series cap would not be good enough even when new. That is why we suggest Panasonic FC or FM series caps.

Again, other name brand manufacturers (Nichicon, United Chemicon, Rubycon) all have excellent quality and make caps that will also work well. Check the 'Which capacitors should I buy' thread in the FAQ.

PlainBill

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

original parts seem to be wired in parallel. Just a random observation.

Now, I have one more question before I pull the trigger and order replacement caps. Here are my two candidates:
Panasonic FC: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...name=P10294-ND
Panasonic FM: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...name=P12392-ND

I've read that the FM is better than the FC, but in my particular situation, the FM has a higher voltage rating (all else being the same). Since this voltage rating of 50V is higher than the original part's rating of 35V, I should be fine? Or should I pick the FC, since it has the exact same voltage rating?

Both have the same capacity and dimensions, main problem being the silk-screened area (6mmx10mm) is smaller than the smallest good replacement cap that I can find (these are 8x11.5, tight fit but I can make it work)

I can't get over the smilies here! Still my favorite:

[retiredcaps]

Re: Acer AL2416W

I've read that the FM is better than the FC, but in my particular situation, the FM has a higher voltage rating (all else being the same). Since this voltage rating of 50V is higher than the original part's rating of 35V, I should be fine? Or should I pick the FC, since it has the exact same voltage rating?

Both have the same capacity and dimensions, main problem being the silk-screened area (6mmx10mm) is smaller than the smallest good replacement cap that I can find (these are 8x11.5, tight fit but I can make it work)

You can go higher in voltage. Just ensure it fits.

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

replaced with panasonic fc. Both FM and FC were the same size and capacity, but the FM was 50V while the FC was 35V. Both were slightly larger than the original parts.

I was originally going to use the FM (bought 10 of each) but it was late and I forgot

Anyways, it works much better now. Only problem is that the backlight sometimes is unstable. It dims/flickers very slightly from time to time, and if you turn it on from a cold start (i.e. if the backlight hasn't been on for a while), the backlight will go out after 1 or 2 seconds. Re-cycling the power button fixes this.

I can live with both of these, and my gut says if it 'ain't (badly) broke', don't fix it, but if these symptoms point to something obvious, please let me know.

A recap is in the works already, since I don't trust that I put in the FC's w/o damaging one or two of 'em. In the process of bending the legs, I may have pulled one out about 1, maybe 2 smidges (maybe even as much as half of a mm). Perhaps since these caps were in parallel from what I could tell, a single cap failure from a botched fix will result in a slightly lower capacitance instead of the deadness that happens when all 4 caps in the bank popped originally?

[retiredcaps]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Only problem is that the backlight sometimes is unstable. It dims/flickers very slightly from time to time, and if you turn it on from a cold start (i.e. if the backlight hasn't been on for a while), the backlight will go out after 1 or 2 seconds. Re-cycling the power button fixes this.

Sounds like a possible poor solder joint. I suggest rechecking with a magnifying glass.

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Yes, I'm planning on recapping them. I can't say for sure, but my feeling is that I must have broken a cap when I was bending the legs. The bending motion exerts a slight pulling motion on the pin when bent the way I bent the first few, since I was using needlenose pliers and rolling the wire around the tip, using the capacitor can for leverage.
I also tested for continuity across all caps' legs once soldered on, and none of them were completely continuous. I should have looked at the resistance values too, though, to make sure they're all the same. Meh.

Next time around, I'm clamping the wire with the pliers and using tweezers to bend the leads. Not to mention I'm actually going to use FMs when I redo it.

//========Fresh meat=========
I got another AL2416W in last week, instead of 2 or 3 seconds to blank, it is a split second to blank. This has me worried that perhaps there is a bad tube too?

Found same TDK inverter board, more or less, and the suspect caps: C34, C35, C36, and C38.

Since all are the same values, I am going to replace all 10 on the board with panasonic FM's: 100uF 50V

Cans are slightly larger than the old ones, but I can make it work.

I think I'm going to use this same thread for updates and issues as I run into them.

Did I mention that this site has the best smilies?!

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Update: Recapped all 10 caps on the TDK inverter board, though only 4 of them were visibly bad. Now instead of a split second of light (i.e. 1 or 2 tenths of a second), I get nothing. Still looks like it boots up, but no backlight activity.

I'm going to search for people with similar inverter boards to find how they troubleshooted (troubleshot?) their monitors, but if anybody wants to throw in some easy LCD monitor troubleshooting tips, feel free, I would appreciate it.

[Toasty]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Double-check all the caps are inserted correctly as to polarity.

Make sure you put the correct values in the correct positions.

Don't -just- check the transformers for bad solder joints, reflow all the joints with fresh solder.

Voltages to/from the board? Did you check the (3) SMD fuses?

Sounds like shutdown from either a bad tube or bad FET's. I just re-tubed a 24" Dell with a nearly identical inverter board as severach's that you linked to in Post #4 above.

The FET's are a bit of a pickle from what I've read. IF they need replacing, there is a recommendation (somewhere I can't find now) to use IDENTICAL part numbers with no substitutions and to replace them as a pair.

Toast

[PlainBill]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Update: Recapped all 10 caps on the TDK inverter board, though only 4 of them were visibly bad. Now instead of a split second of light (i.e. 1 or 2 tenths of a second), I get nothing. Still looks like it boots up, but no backlight activity.

I'm going to search for people with similar inverter boards to find how they troubleshooted (troubleshot?) their monitors, but if anybody wants to throw in some easy LCD monitor troubleshooting tips, feel free, I would appreciate it.

I'll give you for hints: Pictures, pictures, pictures, check the fuses!!!

Basic troubleshooting is easy if you have a schematic. It gets more difficult, but is still possible if you have pictures of the top and bottom of the circuit board. With nothing but a description, it's a waste of time.

PlainBill

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Ok, I'll check fuses, from what I understand, less than 0.3 ohms when off is alright. I remember seeing two smd fuses, perhaps the third is hiding from me.

Transformers, you said not just to check continuity, but to reflow the joints? Will do. Should all resistances be the same from transformer to transformer? There are 6 identical transformers in a row, and I was going to test resistances for uniformity.

Polarity markings are silkscreened on the boards, all of my caps are oriented correctly. Will recheck solder joints.

As for the FETs, to determine if they are shorted, they would be shorted across the source and drain? And what will "shorted" be, a somewhat low resistance, or very close to 0 low?

Pictures will be a problem for me, but will iPhone pics suffice? I can probably borrow one later.

I will test voltages on the "rainbow" cable, with respect to ground too, and see if there's anything strange or missing there.

Thanks for the advice, and pictures will be here soon.

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Still haven't gotten around to pix, but I did find that one of the MOSFETs was shorted. It looks like I've got some research to do. IIRC, someone said it was best to replace the shorted mosfet and it's complementary brother. I haven't finished skimming the s3rvice manual (elektrotanya.com) , but I'll see if maybe there are more specs in there. There ARE a lot of good flowcharts and diagrams describing the internal heirarchy of the hardware as well as the processes of the firmware.

Still kind of iffy on testing something when said something is on, but I need to find a new mosfet before I bother turning the thing on again.

All 3 smd fuses are conducting well, as well as the big fuse on the PS board.

Each transformer had a few pins that had testpoints, and resistance between each transformers's test points was almost right on the money.

No visibly bad caps on any other boards

pics coming soon, gotta run!

[Toasty]

Re: Acer AL2416W

"IIRC, someone said it was best to replace the shorted mosfet and it's complementary brother. "

Yeah, me, 3 posts previous... :p


EDIT:

6 transformers? Should be 12 if yours is like the link in Post 4...

PLEASE get some pics so we can stop guessing.

[BShanahan14rulz]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Sorry, kind of using this thread as notes for myself.

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/sh...t=21285&page=2

Here, two different people have suggested two different pairs of mosfets that they have had success with on the al2416w inverter.

Original parts:
P5504EDG (P-Channel)
P2804BDG (N-Channel)

Potential replacement pair 1:
FDD5614P
FDD5612

Potential replacement pair 2:
FDD6685
FDD6690

[bonney]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Do lets us know how you get on if you dont fit original, which are available

[retiredcaps]

Re: Acer AL2416W

Controller board looks fine, but here's a pic:

In the future, please use the manage attachments to upload your pics instead of posting inline.

I'm testing a netbook for someone and reading this thread is just about impossible because of the inline pictures and the scrolling left and right.

Inline pics also slow down the loading of this thread because I have to download all the pics everytime I want to read an update.