Need help wiring up 240VAC.

[stj]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

purple is kind of undefined, but generally high frequency or dc.
in other worlds - it's an unknown risk.

[TechGeek]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

your plug is IP44,
the colour indicates the voltage.
120v = yellow
240v = blue
400v = red
if it's light purple - dont mess with it!

so about these building codes:
does the outlet need a specific safety mark?
UL for example?

why do you not want to mess with the light purple plugs?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

We sent back the 240VAC single-phase and ordered a replacement of two 120/240 single phase PDUs that come with the NEMA L6-30P plug on them.

[stj]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

you changed them? or HP changed them?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

Because that's what the plugs on the PDUs are.

[stj]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

why using shit nema outlets btw?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

nice drawing, but use sleeving instead of tape,
and use screw terminals instead of stabbing.
so you are fitting a pair of 32A 240v outlets?

I agree that backstabbing is generally bad, but these are industrial grade outlets and the backstabbing isn't going to be an issue. I can show a picture of the connection if you want.

Where you screw down the wire, there's a really thick plate (just like with the breakers) where you slip the wire into and tighten the screw. It's just like the breakers.

We are fitting a pair of 30A 240v outlets. For sleeving, you mean the heat shrink tubing? That is a great idea.

I forgot to tape the white HOT wire, so I have to remove it anyway from the breaker. Haven't quite gotten to installing the conduit and receptacles. Needed a better drill to drill into the cement. We have the cement bit but with my little battery powered drill, oh man.

I noticed the professional electrician we hired to replace the sub-panel and panel with a 200-amp panel did NOT mark the white wires at all! And on top of it, at the actual receptacle, he marked the black wire with white paint. To me, that just doesn't seem right.

I will say, he had a young apprentice working for him (my neighbor who works for CAC who knows him says he believes that was his son) and perhaps the son marked the black wire with white paint and the main guy just didn't check. Not sure how the inspector missed that with the rough wiring, unless they didn't really inspect inside because they're so used to him doing work and just assumed it was good.

[stj]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

nice drawing, but use sleeving instead of tape,
and use screw terminals instead of stabbing.
so you are fitting a pair of 32A 240v outlets?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

Finally got some good news! Took my drawing down to the code enforcement office to get the permit. Steve, the enforcer, was impressed with it and said he wasn't going to make me pay for a permit. He said just do the rough wiring, call one of the inspectors, have it inspected, then they'll call him, and I can finish tying it up.

At first, he thought it was a drawing I printed off the net, but I assured him it was one I made of my actual basement. Here's the pic of what I showed him. I know it isn't perfect and not to scale (for example, the electrical boxes I'm using are 4 foot from the floor, they're 4" x 4" in size, that leaves 2 feet to the ceiling, but in the drawing, they appear in to be about middle from the floor and ceiling). That was because I didn't have enough room to label stuff.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

Sorry to hear about your condition Spork, hope it improves!

You can't use a single GFCI breaker for so many devices.
Normally they are rated for 20mA fault current to break the circuit.
The thing is to get proper safety PSU's need X caps between live & earth, which do leak a bit.
And when you add many power supplies and other equipment up you will pass that 20mA rating and the breaker will trip.

As a beginner for compliance testing this video might be able to offer some insight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRSAK3D8VJU


That sounds much better, besides running a single PDU is a single point of failure.
Just like with the GFCI breakers: single point of failure.
Better to have double of everything since you have redundant PSU's.
That also goes for the proposed transformer: would have been a single point of failure.
And worse if it failed: it might take you a very long time to source a replacement transformer which for a hosting company would mean very unhappy customers!

I gotcha. We're not a hosting company and don't plan on being one, but redundancy is always good.

Having issues with our ISP. Right now, we cannot afford a dedicated fibre line. Shared lines aren't really that impressive here. However, Spectrum offers what they call Internet Gig, which is something like 1,000Mbps down / 30 up. It'd cost us an extra 54$ to upgrade to that, which is tempting, but what we really need is a static IP and I'd love to have RIPv2 enabled.

They won't provide us with a static IP and enable RIPv2 unless we switch to business, but if we switch to business, we loose IPv6 and a bunch of residential channels, including the BBC (I cannot live without my Star Trek, wife and I cannot live without our Doctor Who, both of which are on BBC). So we'd need two accounts, one residential for TV (which costs about the same, if not more than what we're paying for residential TV, phone, and internet!), plus a business one for phone and internet (which is cheaper than residential), but I need the IPv6.

For the company who offers the shared fibre lines, Empire Access, no IPv6 yet. They're supposed to email me or call once the technicians get back to them to see if they can hook their incoming fibre line directly to our transceiver instead of using one of theirs. No since going from fibre to copper to fibre to copper. I doubt they'd do that though. It's probably their transceiver that sets the speed.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

Sorry to hear about your condition Spork, hope it improves!

I don't remember what he said about the GFCI breakers. Do you guys foresee any issues with using GFCI breakers (replacing the current breakers with the same size GFCI breakers) for the type of loads I have, such as BGA rework station (~4800 watt), pre-heater (I think ~2000 watt, but might be mistaken), WHA-900 hot air rework station, digital soldering iron, logic anaylzer (mainframe), servers (2,800 watt each, two PSUs at 1,400 watt), vacuum cleaner, etc?

Shouldn't be any issues, right?

You can't use a single GFCI breaker for so many devices.
Normally they are rated for 20mA fault current to break the circuit.
The thing is to get proper safety PSU's need X caps between live & earth, which do leak a bit.
And when you add many power supplies and other equipment up you will pass that 20mA rating and the breaker will trip.

I will probably need to use such a service with my inventions that we plan on trying to sell to the public (and eventually, commercial) sector.

Because they're going to be drawing electricity, they're going to need to be tested, to see what interference they're putting off, etc, right? Is TuV what I'd use for compliance testing if our target market is the entire world?

As a beginner for compliance testing this video might be able to offer some insight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRSAK3D8VJU

I ran a test. Despite what the HPE techs said, some of the people on EEVBlog where correct. I wired one of the 1400 watt PSUs up to one of my NEMA L6-30P's and plugged it in. Fired right up.

Even though I've installed the PDU, we still have the original box and packing material (which must be kept if we're not sending it back for warranty purposes). I'm hoping I can use the HPE techs said the PSUs wouldn't work with the American 120-0-120V split-phase as leverage if they give me any shit about sending it back.

But I'm going to attempt to do what Per Hansson said and send that bitch back and purchase a couple of the P9S13As.

That sounds much better, besides running a single PDU is a single point of failure.
Just like with the GFCI breakers: single point of failure.
Better to have double of everything since you have redundant PSU's.
That also goes for the proposed transformer: would have been a single point of failure.
And worse if it failed: it might take you a very long time to source a replacement transformer which for a hosting company would mean very unhappy customers!

[budm]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

RF modules:
https://emcfastpass.com/rf-modules/
http://www.embedded-computing.com/em...r-iot-products.
If you are going incorporate the pre-certified device then you read through that link and pay attention so when you do EMC/EMI testing of the final device you will not get the surprise.
This is one of the Lab we use: http://www.baclcorp.com/index.html I have been there many times to oversee the testing.
BTW, you can also request your product manufacturer to do the compliance testing for you, sometime it is cheaper to have it done in China than the US.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

Any one can make the device to pass compliance as long as you follow the requirement which basically need to have the knowledge to begin with. At my work place we bought lots of equipment to do pre-test to make sure it will pass the specific test per UL before giving the products to UL to be tested. UL does not care if you are licensed or not, just as long as the device will pass their test, they will you if it fails the test or not but they will not tell you how to fix it to make it pass the test.

What kind of the device are you trying to make and sell and whom will be the customer base?
You can study more here:
https://www.ul.com/consumer-technology/en/
https://industries.ul.com/segments/medical-devices

I will PM you.

[budm]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

HP PDU: see page 117 for what kind of compliance it has:


Safety compliance: UL 60950-1
https://www.ul.com/consumer-technolo...trical-safety/
"A harmonized, hazard–based safety standard IEC 62368-1 designed to encompass A/V and IT products has been developed in response to technological changes as product capabilities merge. This new IEC hazard-based standard will eventually replace IEC 60065 and IEC 60950-1. See 62368-1 Hazard Based Safety Engineering & Testing for details."

62368-1 Hazard Based Safety:
https://www.ul.com/consumer-technolo...-based-safety/
"62368-1 is the hazard-based standard that will eventually replace existing standards: IEC/EN/UL/CSA 60065, Audio, Video & Similar Electronic Apparatus and IEC/EN/UL/CSA 60950–1, Information Technology Equipment. This new standard applies to a broad range of high-tech products from consumer electronics to office equipment and offers greater flexibility in product design, making it easier for the introduction of new technology."
"Are You Ready for 62368-1? Prepare for Compliance with the UL 62368 ToolKit

The 62368 UL ToolKit is available for $795 USD. This comprehensive resource includes:

A copy of the 62368-1 Standard ($642 USD value)
Step-by-step transition guide
Notifications on latest updates to 62368-1
Access to Webinars/Webcasts
Exclusive Members-Only Q&A Blog
and much more…"
As you can see, if you want to do pre-test you need to know what the test are so you will buy xxxxxx standard and study it and lots of time it is not perfectly clear either. And when the standard is changed or updated, you must be prepare that you device will pass the new requirement. It is never ending process, we go though that every year and it sure costs us lots of money every year. It will be lots of learning curve. We have compliance department just to keep all the products compliance up to date.

[budm]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

Any one can make the device to pass compliance as long as you follow the requirement which basically need to have the knowledge to begin with. At my work place we bought lots of equipment to do pre-test to make sure it will pass the specific test per UL before giving the products to UL to be tested. UL does not care if you are licensed or not, just as long as the device will pass their test, they will you if it fails the test or not but they will not tell you how to fix it to make it pass the test.

What kind of the device are you trying to make and sell and whom will be the customer base?
You can study more here:
https://www.ul.com/consumer-technology/en/
https://industries.ul.com/segments/medical-devices

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

For that testing though, I do NOT need to be a licensed electrical engineer, do I? If so, my business is over with. I cannot afford a licensed engineer, nor can I spend the time to become one. By the time I became one, my devices would be useless.

Thank you for all this information. Is is something I thought about, but did not properly research yet and did not expect it to be so involved. This is definitely something I'm going to have to go over in more finer detail. I'll bookmark this page. If it costs more than what we plan on making, it wouldn't make sense to go that route.

The good thing is though with the hardware I have, there a few options available, and if this one doesn't work out, not all is lost. We just try something different. I tried building the data center in such a way where we could use it for x, y, or z. We're trying x right now. If that fails, we'll maybe try y, or x^2, if you follow

[budm]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

You are responsible for your products, if it does not pass compliance for the country the middle man is trying to sell it, and if anything deadly went wrong you are responsible.
You need to make plan as to what country you are trying to sell the products too so you compliance testing company will tell you if they can do it for the particular country or not. For example the products we already selling that has gone through TuV already but we could not sell in Korea so we had to ask TuV to perform the test per Korean requirement, same for the Chinese and Japan, extra pay for extra test.
The Broadcom module may have FCC for the US, but it will need that for other country as well per country requirement, and the even though the model pass FCC, the whole product may not pass, the FCC test is done on the unit as the whole, we have so many certificate for so many countries for our products with RF. It is like installing the breaker that pass UL but you did not use proper wire gauge or poor heat management so when UL test the product it can still fail UL test. You should budget out your compliance testing to see how much and how many products you have to sell to recover the compliance testing and the yearly certificate renewal and they will also get the random sample form the factory to test also to make sure there is nothing fishy going on with the products, I.E. parts substitute without notifying the UL or whom ever. We just paid 3K for them to update the report due to changing the AC outlet due to EOL of that model of the outlet.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

That answered my next question, if I were targeting the world, would I need compliance testing for each country or is there one for all. Thanks for answering that. I take it even if another company is selling the product for me, it is still my responsibility to have it certificated for compliance? How much do you estimate an FCC certificate would cost for one product? I believe I might need one.

Let's say I use a component that already passed the compliance test in one of my inventions, like a Broadcom bluetooth module, that already has the FCC certificate and went through the various tests. Because my device uses that bluetooth module, would I need to have my device tested as well, or because the bluetooth module already went through it, would I might not need to worry about the FCC?

I wonder if there's a place that does testing for all the major countries, instead of having to go to multiple places for each different country.

Thanks BudM!

[budm]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

We use UL for main local products, another lab for CSA for US/Canadian, TuV for export products. We spend over 1M each year for compliance testing plus the certificate maintenance for each each year. We also spend lots of money for EMI/EMC for FCC certificates. You can easily spend 10K on the first test, if it does not pass then you will have to spend more and prepare to have many many samples + the up to date compliance certificate for the listed critical components that are being used in the products. It is not cheap! You do not have to use other labs that will do the test according to the UL standard and it will be a lot cheaper than having it done at UL.
We also use ETL marking (http://www.intertek.com/marks/etl/faq/) with the test done by Intertek.
For China (CCC), Koreas (KC, can be done by TuV and others), Japan (PSE: https://www.jet.or.jp/en/import/index.html) you will need another compliance testing per their standdard just for those countries, they do not accept just the UL/TuV, they will want their own compliance standard, many countries are doing it that way. You need to do lots of research for compliance for each country, it is lots or works and costs lots of money. Look at all the logos printed on the products and you will see how much you have to go through to allow to put all those logos on the products.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Need help wiring up 240VAC.

EAC can be done by compliance tester which will perform the test per EAC requirement, I.E. TuV can provide testing. TuV is just one of many compliance testers out there.

At this point I have no suggestion, but as long as it is done properly, safely, and up to code then it should not be problem.

I will probably need to use such a service with my inventions that we plan on trying to sell to the public (and eventually, commercial) sector.

Because they're going to be drawing electricity, they're going to need to be tested, to see what interference they're putting off, etc, right? Is TuV what I'd use for compliance testing if our target market is the entire world?