New electric panel.

[budm]

Re: New electric panel.

You can use free schematic software for making the drawings.
http://www.digikey.com/schemeit/project/
or just search for 'free home wiring diagram software'

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

You should map out your house wring so it will make it easier to see what you have an what you will want to have.
"On a kitchen circuit I would put the microwave on one circuit, the Refrigerator on another circuit and the counter plugs on another." That is good suggestion.

Budm, do you or anyone else know of any good free software to do that kinda stuff? I'll map it out on paper if I have to, but I thought it'd be nice to be able to have a digital layout of the house, with the wiring and stuff like that.

[budm]

Re: New electric panel.

You should map out your house wring so it will make it easier to see what you have an what you will want to have.
"On a kitchen circuit I would put the microwave on one circuit, the Refrigerator on another circuit and the counter plugs on another." That is good suggestion.

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

I contacted the company again and asked them about their combination arc fault breakers and explained how a couple of people said they were tripping a couple times a week. The company responded and said their products go through rigorous testing and if they're tripping, it's more than likely because of too high a load.

So, what you say here Keeney123, to me, makes sense. If I'm understanding the company correctly, there's just too many loads on a circuit. If that is correct then, I might have a real problem. We have a two story house with a full unfinished basement and an attic but only 17 circuits. Our old one story house had a heck of a lot more. Every room minus the bathrooms and kitchen have a ceiling fan and there's at least one outlet per wall. There's 8 receptacles and 7 switches just in the kitchen. We have a microwave, a natural gas stove, a dishwasher and a refrigerator in the kitchen that all use electric. There's four lights in the kitchen. One of the switches also controls the backyard light. I'm wondering if the whole kitchen is hooked just to one breaker. If it is, I bet that would be enough draw to trip a combination arc fault breaker all the time.

If it is, how do I fix that? The previous owners took down the lathe and plaster and put up drywall. When we were running the various low-voltage wires to the baby's room, the fish line or whatever it's called got stuck. We had to go into the master bedroom and cut into the lathe and plaster there (the closest still have it, drywall everywhere else though). I noticed the electrical wire for the outlet has those white plastic staples. That means when they tore down the lathe and plaster and removed the knob and tube wiring and put in the Romex, they used the plastic staples. I'm assuming they used them in every room.

If I tried running new Romex for some of the outlets / receptacles / etc, can I just pull it through or would I need to use those white plastic staples every x amount of feet? You know, so if the kitchen is all on one breaker, I could split it and maybe have it on two or three breakers...

If and arcing current is detected the electricity is jumping across a opening. They most likely have some time parameters that they incorporate into it to rule out a relay kicking in. I would say most of your circuits you would not have to worry about this. Perhaps heavy motor load circuits that do not have a soft start could affect this and I would say to counter this I would put a soft start on that circuit or just use a regular breaker. On a kitchen circuit I would put the microwave on one circuit, the Refrigerator on another circuit and the counter plugs on another. The gas stove you will not have to worry about. On the rest of the house I would put one 15 to 20 amp breaker per room. Each room should have a receptacle on each wall. I would run the first floor wires in the cellar on the inside of the floor joist. I would run the second floor through the attic. So you would pick a spot that is not near an opening and run the second floor wires up the first floor studs then the second floor studs and in the attic you would distribute the wires in the attic on the second floor ceiling joist and the main beam in the attic.Some people break up the overhead lights from the wall plugs. I do not think this is necessary, but I would check on the local code to see what it says. If you have like a room that is going to be for work you might run a 120 volt 15 amp circuit an 20 Amp circuit and a 220 Volt perhaps 30 amp. If you end up putting in central air I would have a 30 to 50 Amp breaker for that depending on what type of system you get.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

The apartment I had in Seattle had arc fault breakers. Only time one trip is when I was working on a shop vac and forgot to unplug it. I felt the surge of current then it tripped.

I contacted the company again and asked them about their combination arc fault breakers and explained how a couple of people said they were tripping a couple times a week. The company responded and said their products go through rigorous testing and if they're tripping, it's more than likely because of too high a load.

So, what you say here Keeney123, to me, makes sense. If I'm understanding the company correctly, there's just too many loads on a circuit. If that is correct then, I might have a real problem. We have a two story house with a full unfinished basement and an attic but only 17 circuits. Our old one story house had a heck of a lot more. Every room minus the bathrooms and kitchen have a ceiling fan and there's at least one outlet per wall. There's 8 receptacles and 7 switches just in the kitchen. We have a microwave, a natural gas stove, a dishwasher and a refrigerator in the kitchen that all use electric. There's four lights in the kitchen. One of the switches also controls the backyard light. I'm wondering if the whole kitchen is hooked just to one breaker. If it is, I bet that would be enough draw to trip a combination arc fault breaker all the time.

If it is, how do I fix that? The previous owners took down the lathe and plaster and put up drywall. When we were running the various low-voltage wires to the baby's room, the fish line or whatever it's called got stuck. We had to go into the master bedroom and cut into the lathe and plaster there (the closest still have it, drywall everywhere else though). I noticed the electrical wire for the outlet has those white plastic staples. That means when they tore down the lathe and plaster and removed the knob and tube wiring and put in the Romex, they used the plastic staples. I'm assuming they used them in every room.

If I tried running new Romex for some of the outlets / receptacles / etc, can I just pull it through or would I need to use those white plastic staples every x amount of feet? You know, so if the kitchen is all on one breaker, I could split it and maybe have it on two or three breakers...

[Uniballer]

Re: New electric panel.

When was this? I heard they were working on getting the bugs out, but if they're not ready for mainstream yet, I do not want to use them.

You probably have no choice about using AFCI breakers if you replace the panel because the current electrical code (2014 NEC) requires them. Contact your local building inspector if you have questions about that.

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

The apartment I had in Seattle had arc fault breakers. Only time one trip is when I was working on a shop vac and forgot to unplug it. I felt the surge of current then it tripped.

[stj]

Re: New electric panel.

it wouldnt surprise me if psu PFC circuits could trip one.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

had lots of issues with afci here.
i tried a few that came with a qo panel.
rfi would trip them esp 40m at 100w.
my neighbor installed a new panel and i could trip his too.
they are far from ready for mainstream use.took em back out.
great idea thats not perfected yet.

When was this? I heard they were working on getting the bugs out, but if they're not ready for mainstream yet, I do not want to use them.

Is this with all AFCIs or just the Square D that go with the QO panels? Also, what's rfi and 40m? Thanks.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

the problem, is that they either trip, or they dont.
you cant "choose" which arc's they detect and which they ignore.

that's why we dont use them in Europe.
infact the only time i ever saw one was when an inline one was sent out by microsoft so they wouldnt have to recall combusting x-boxes!

i didnt use that either - i just resoldered the x-box psu instead.

btw, boiler ignition units will probably trip them!

Stj, I don't think it's arc's that are making them trip, is it? I mean for the false trips...my understanding is the way they detect the arcs is the issue right now and there are normal circumstances that will make them think it's detected an arc. One guy was talking about how it was just random for his house. He was using his PC, nothing else, and it just tripped. He said a couple times a week they'd trip for no apparent reason and the company said they're aware of the problem and looking for a solution.

I was thinking maybe if there's a rush of current or something, they might trip. Would my BGA rework station cause them trip? It demands a good bit of power. Do vacuum cleaners still cause them to trip? From the post I read, the guy was saying it was just the Square D that he was having issues with and was going to switch to another brand. I still haven't checked, but I might not have a choice and I might have to use arc-fault breakers.

I'm really leaning towards the Square D plug-on neutral ones but if they're still a bit buggy, I don't want to drop 1,500$ or so and then find out. I don't think I'll be able to return them after installing them.

[kc8adu]

Re: New electric panel.

had lots of issues with afci here.
i tried a few that came with a qo panel.
rfi would trip them esp 40m at 100w.
my neighbor installed a new panel and i could trip his too.
they are far from ready for mainstream use.took em back out.
great idea thats not perfected yet.

[stj]

Re: New electric panel.

the problem, is that they either trip, or they dont.
you cant "choose" which arc's they detect and which they ignore.

that's why we dont use them in Europe.
infact the only time i ever saw one was when an inline one was sent out by microsoft so they wouldnt have to recall combusting x-boxes!

i didnt use that either - i just resoldered the x-box psu instead.

btw, boiler ignition units will probably trip them!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

It's a mega family of QO Load Centers and a bit confusing:
"Aluminum bus construction on fixed mains panels"
"Shielded one-piece plated copper bus construction on convertible mains panels"

Catalog Number-> Special Construction -CU "Copper Bussing" {option}

"Model # QO142M200PC Convertible Mains – Factory-Installed Main Circuit Breaker
QOM2 Main Frame Size – Convertible to Main Lugs or Lower Amperage Main Circuit Breaker – Copper Bus"

So it looks like a copper bus model. Confusing they have aluminum bus and optional copper bus in the same product family.

The Plug-on Neutral looks like a time saver but does it take that long to cut and strip a neutral connection? You have to cut and strip the hots. I don't see much of an advantage there, but I do like to wire things up...

To me, the plug-on neutral isn't so much about saving time, I just think it looks nicer not having all the pigtails. I've read more about the CAFI breakers and I'm a bit worried though. A guy bought some Square D ones and said they trip all the time, just not motors and lights, but anything, a couple times a week. He says he contacted the company and they said it's a known issue and they're working on fixing it. They said if someone's working on the lines in the area, they can trip, yadda yadda yadda. I wonder if that's fixed now or if that's still an issue.

I can understand maybe a halogen light or something tripping a breaker, but if our vacuum cleaner or my rework station or our PCs are going to trip them, that's going to be an issue. I need to see if arc fault are really required in this area or not. If they're not, maybe I'll just go for the GFCI breakers.

[redwire]

Re: New electric panel.

It's a mega family of QO Load Centers and a bit confusing:
"Aluminum bus construction on fixed mains panels"
"Shielded one-piece plated copper bus construction on convertible mains panels"

Catalog Number-> Special Construction -CU "Copper Bussing" {option}

"Model # QO142M200PC Convertible Mains – Factory-Installed Main Circuit Breaker
QOM2 Main Frame Size – Convertible to Main Lugs or Lower Amperage Main Circuit Breaker – Copper Bus"

So it looks like a copper bus model. Confusing they have aluminum bus and optional copper bus in the same product family.

The Plug-on Neutral looks like a time saver but does it take that long to cut and strip a neutral connection? You have to cut and strip the hots. I don't see much of an advantage there, but I do like to wire things up...

[Mad_Professor]

Re: New electric panel.

Schneider Electric has answered my e-mail. They say:

...all of our QO load centers have a copper bus.

Are you sure about the Lowes and Home Depot Square D QO series having an aluminum buss? The company seems to think all of their QO series have a copper buss.

Thanks.

I've got the QO 12 circuit 6 slot panel for my shop, I had the same thought, it's definitely copper with tin finish.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

...Square D QO series at Lowes and Home Depot are aluminum buss and still 10 year warranty. So much $$$ for a crappy panel, IMO...

Schneider Electric has answered my e-mail. They say:

...all of our QO load centers have a copper bus.

Are you sure about the Lowes and Home Depot Square D QO series having an aluminum buss? The company seems to think all of their QO series have a copper buss.

Thanks.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

I do not think it was I who suggested about the panel sensing circuit. I would however contact these people before I made any decision on what to buy. http://ubicomplab.cs.washington.edu/

Nah, I don't think anyone suggested anything about the panel sensing circuit. I just saw the definition in that PDF you linked me to. Before then, I didn't realize anything like that existed. Now I know!

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

I do not think it was I who suggested about the panel sensing circuit. I would however contact these people before I made any decision on what to buy. http://ubicomplab.cs.washington.edu/

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

I think you will find that info here http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...nt/0600DB0201/

I would call up Graybar tell them what your doing and see if they can set you up with a good price.

That's perfect! It definitely beats trying to google every term I come across! Thank you.

I'll look into Graybar as well. I'm waiting on Schneider Electric to get back to me. I asked them a question or two and want to see what they say first.

I wonder if I could install one of those BCMs (circuit breaker communications module). From the PDF you linked, if I understand it correctly, it'll hook the circuit breakers up to a network. I'm looking at them as kinda like a managed switch, where you can turn ports on and off, configure their speed, make them full duplex / half duplex, whatever.

It'd be cool if I could monitor the breakers, see which ones are active, which ones have tripped, how much amperage is being drawn, etc. For a fairly big two story house, we only have 17 circuits. To me, that just seemed a little small. Our old house, being single story, had a 40 space panel. All spaces were populated but a few breakers weren't being used. As far as I can tell, every wall in every room has at least one outlet on it. Excluding the basement and the attic, there's 9 rooms total. But there's also outlets in the attic, in the basement and in the hallway upstairs. Just about every room (except for the bathrooms and the kitchen) have ceiling fans. Every breaker is 20-amp, minus the one 60-amp.

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

Keeney123, what's the difference between a circuit breaker and a miniature circuit breaker? I'm looking at the site you linked me too (I was searching it before I clicked your link).

I see stuff like this:

http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...rcuit-breakers

Is that 480$ for just one 40-amp 2-pole breaker? That's really expensive. On HomeDepot, for the arc-fault / GFCI combo 30-amp, I think it was around 90$. I couldn't find any plug-on type arc-fault / GFCI 2-pole breakers though and I couldn't find anything higher than 30-amp for the dual pole arc-fault / GFCI combo breakers.

Also, what do you think the 10k and 22k AIR thing means? I just found this:

http://www.productinfo.schneider-ele...000056449.xml#

Which shows they don't make a dual-function plug-on neutral 2-pole breaker of any size. They do make a 15-amp and a 20-amp arc-fault with pigtails circuit breaker though, part numbers:

QO215CAFI
QO220CAFI
QO215VHCAFI
QO220VHCAFI

I think you will find that info here http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...nt/0600DB0201/

I would call up Graybar tell them what your doing and see if they can set you up with a good price.