Wiring ethernet in new office

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

This isn't medium sized. You have no idea how 'small' sized this business is.

Excuse me, my friend. I just answered to someone else and it happened that way that we hijacked your topic.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

This isn't medium sized. You have no idea how 'small' sized this business is. Three computers, two wifi devices. They've been using a D-link router sitting on the floor from ten years ago for, well, ten years.

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Stability should come before performance. In mission critical applications, something no less than a pfSense box should be used, perhaps with repeaters... Otherwise something like an Archer C8 would do fine... Though the C8 does does not have any good open source implementations... The stock firmware is decent enough though.

Mikrotiks are good for mission critical tasks. Mikrotik 3011 for example comes with 10x1Gbps ports and 1SFP for about 170$ and 10W power consumption. pfSense is dedicated Linux networking distribution, based on BSD. There is a big difference in what you get as power consumption. While the software of the Mikrotiks is flexible and specifically made to work with specific hardware, pfSense runs on general purpose computers. I am not saying that it is bad, I am saying it is more prone to unforeseen incompatibilities and problems. If you don't have separate networking department, but 1-2 persons as IT staff, better go for the Mikrotik. You can use 2 Mikrotiks for redundancy and easily backup the config and upload it on replacement device.
TPLinks are SOHO devices. Neither have advanced functions, nor they are meant to be used in serious networks.
You buy Mikrotik, which is dedicated device. You configure it and it just works.
I can even use WindowsServer or CentOS as a router. But I don't want to do it.
I have configured 2 VPNs, firewall rules, several VLANs, website blocking and traffic monitoring. It costed me no more 20 minutes to have working network and I had device with 10W consumption and fibreoptic connection ready to be mounted inside the rack with brackets, kindly provided and waiting in the box to be used. You cant do something like this with pfSense.
Mikrotiks are ideal from SOHO to medium sized enterprises and even big companies, while you don't need a whole networking department to take care of the network management.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

I used Pfsense ten years ago /w an Athlon t-bird 1ghz and 256M ECC. I don't have any decent box PC's that meet his space requirement. New boxes would cost more than necessary, in that case I would get a Mikrotik, and of course I would have to get like a unifi AP or something like that. But his requirements are pretty low. Just internet and wifi access for his phone and tablet

I just found out that I won't be doing the actual wiring. I'll put the keystones and plates in, but yeah that's it

[mockingbird]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

You cant expect some cheap router with unknown processor and 16-32MB RAM to perform like Mikrotik with dual core 1.4Ghz ARM and 1024MB RAM.

I've had good results with the BCM4708 but not the BCM4709.

I think Broadcom is playing games with the engineering of the die bumps or the underfill, but for whatever reason, the BCM4709 just isn't reliable.

Stability should come before performance. In mission critical applications, something no less than a pfSense box should be used, perhaps with repeaters...

Otherwise something like an Archer C8 would do fine... Though the C8 does does not have any good open source implementations... The stock firmware is decent enough though.

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

I only buy things which are supported by openwrt, which means any supported router/AP can support basically anything. Last I looked, microtik and ubiquity had a lot of openwrt support.

You cant expect some cheap router with unknown processor and 16-32MB RAM to perform like Mikrotik with dual core 1.4Ghz ARM and 1024MB RAM. Even if certain router is supported by OpenWRT, there aren't guarantees of any kind how it will behave and if it will work stable.
There is also x86 version of Mikrotik RouterOS. The biggest advantage of the Mikrotiks is that they make the software for the hardware they configure/not make/. So, you can expect RouterOS to behave excellently on any Mikrotik. This is not the case with the OpenWRT, running on a cheap router.
Some crappy TPLink with gigabit ports costs about 70$. And the hardware is still extremely poor. So, on the one side you have dual core 0.8GHZ Mikrotik with 256MB RAM, on the other you have TPLink for the same price with 32MB RAM and 4MB Flash. What's the difference? The BIG antennas on the TPLink. And the fact that TPLink firmware is so feature limited, because of inadequate computing specs of the device.
If I want good Wi-Fi, I will buy access points. For the router I want it to provide functionality. When you have a network with 300 devices, constantly working simultaneously, you will see the situation the way I perceive it. I cant afford to play with OpenWRT on some cheap unknown device and receiving calls in 2AM that something had gone wrong and the whole network is down. I wont even buy microcomputer as one you mentioned. Because I need something that will work, that is meant to work exactly this way and the manufacturer guarantees me that it will work as promised. If I install some OS on the micro you mentioned, who will guarantee me that it will work as expected?
With RouterOS on Mikrotik you have a decent device on a good price.
Things like VPN, Filters, routing, forwarding, port insulation, VLANs work out of the box.
You can even write scripts that fulfill different functions.
Mikrotiks are on about the same level as Cisco devices, while the price is significantly lower.
At the moment, Mikrotik is the best device for small and medium businesses. The others can afford much more expensive stuff. Like Sophos firewall, which costs about 3000$. There aren't many people that will pay such money.

[clearchris]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

UBNT is one of the best brands, if you decide to go for Wireless networks.
The products are reliable and easy to configure. Also, they have Unify controller software, which you can install on your server or use as a paid service in their cloud. With it you can manage multiple access points. Something like Active Directory, but for UBNT AP-s. Before this, your option was to use UBNT AP-s and Mikrotik for hotpot and accounting. But unless you require such funtionality, Mikrotik with UBNT AP connected to it will get the job done.
Nobody around here likes Cisco. Mostly because it's expensive and you can get the job done with Mikrotiks, which are much cheaper, while reliable.

I only buy things which are supported by openwrt, which means any supported router/AP can support basically anything. Last I looked, microtik and ubiquity had a lot of openwrt support. I just looked up microtik, prices have really come down on their stuff, they used to be really rare and high priced, looks like they are making a bigger play for the market now. Good, there needs to be more than the usual trash choices.

Right now I'm running a qotom box at home and a secondary AP running bridged over copper. The qotom is something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Qotom-Q190G4N...search&sr=8-21

It's a bit expensive for a router, but I run my network hardware for a long time, so I don't mind spending on it. I put the x86 version of openwrt on it, and it's rock solid, and does whatever I want it to. It's probably about time that I upgrade the network card on it though.

My last router was an asus wl500gl and I ran that thing for around 8 years until it was just too slow for current internet speeds. Recapped it at least twice.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Their are literally like three devices that connect to wifi. If it starts messing up I'll return it and get an Archer C7

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

https://www.amazon.com/D-Link-Dual-B.../dp/B071P3VB1L

I don't want to offend you, but if you choose DLink, I guarantee you that there will be much pain and suffering after this. DLinks are notorious for buggy firmwares, Wi-Fi drops, software hangs and etc. For me, DLink is no-no brand.
Also, having separate router and AP means that you can choose the place of the AP and put it in a place, where you get maximum signal quality, while not having to move every single cable that comes to it. If you really want to buy SOHO stuff, better buy TPLink. Avoid DLink, Asus and Tenda. But these are home solutions. If you one runs any kind of business, it is better to invest into something more decent.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Well it's an AIO. If I got that, I would need to get a separate AP, which would drive the cost up

https://www.amazon.com/D-Link-Dual-B.../dp/B071P3VB1L

the cheapest is actually this

https://www.amazon.com/Mikrotik-RB75.../dp/B01MSUMVUB

odd how amazon lists it as wireless but it's not

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

well this office is going to be built from scratch. I'm sure they will figure out if there is a rodent issue right off the bat

What router and switch you are planning to install? Seems like I was unable to convince you for Mikrotik, so I wonder what it would be
Also, the cheapest Mikrotik with Gigabit networking is RB960PGS, which is about 80$ or just about the price of decent TPLink.
It's cheap, but still flexible, while only 5 port, one of which is usually WAN, so you are left with 4 ports.
One thing that you can do with Mikrotik, but not others is web filtering. No more facebook, for example. Or youtube.

Ubiquiti seems to be the latest brand of choice for small offices.

UBNT is one of the best brands, if you decide to go for Wireless networks.
The products are reliable and easy to configure. Also, they have Unify controller software, which you can install on your server or use as a paid service in their cloud. With it you can manage multiple access points. Something like Active Directory, but for UBNT AP-s. Before this, your option was to use UBNT AP-s and Mikrotik for hotpot and accounting. But unless you require such funtionality, Mikrotik with UBNT AP connected to it will get the job done.
Nobody around here likes Cisco. Mostly because it's expensive and you can get the job done with Mikrotiks, which are much cheaper, while reliable.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Yeah Ubiquity is def what I use for access points. In fact I installed one in our house cause Uverses latest version of their gateway has an inherit flaw that causes the 5ghz to start eventually dropping out. First gateway took hours to randomly start cutting 5ghz off. Second one did it after a few days. I just got a unifi AP and disabled the onboard radios on the gateway

well this office is going to be built from scratch. I'm sure they will figure out if there is a rodent issue right off the bat

[clearchris]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Ubiquiti seems to be the latest brand of choice for small offices. I haven't worked with their equipment myself, but there's pretty glowing reviews of them from the community. They seem to be pro grade or close, but aren't priced like cisco gear.

Sounds like you have it mostly nailed down, since it's a metalworking shop, you may want to consider making the network somewhat hardened against rats. That could just mean attaching the network components to a piece of plywood up on a wall, rats won't come out to chew on things in the open unless they have a truly large colony. A long time ago, I did some troubleshooting in a mechanics shop, that place was crawling with them...

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

They're not growing. It's a metalworking shop that sells custom made curtain rods to interior designers. Like, five workers, and the boss. They are moving out of their old place to one that is actually smaller (shop and office) . They're actually shrinking (well, physically). They have no use for expanding.

Their internet is 75/10. It's really all they need. Their old router is dumber and more outdated, and less secure than this one. It is an enthusiast router, their old one was truly bare minimum home $29 router I didn't install.

The only working from home he might need is the catalog, and it's using an OLD version of corel x4. He'll just put on a flash drive. Vpn would be a waste of money. He 99% of the time never works from home. He SPECIFICALLY keeps those two apart.

This is actually overkill for them. They were fine on their old stuff, but it was already all poorly wired through the walls (physical holes from one room to another). Cameras use poe and nothing else does. Except for the lathem clock-in and that dosen't really even use poe. I'm going to get an injector, and on the other side a poe -> 12v combo adapter that is 12v 3A. Much more supply than needed.

I guess I'll get you a picture of the frame when it's built, but here is the tiny floor plan for the office (rest of it is the shop)

(internet drop is in supply room, which will likely have tiny rack, rack ups, dvr patch panel and switch). Oh also isp voip

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Before, they used the old dlink switch built into this small shitty router, which I'll be replacing. I've found for this business, they have very small needs

Just think about the Mikrotik. 10 x 1Gbps ports, 1SFP port for directly connecting optical network connection from your ISP.
If you say that the number of devices is small, then you may not even need separate switch, because the router will have all the ports you need. Also, think in perspective. They have small needs now, but needs grow, as well as requirements. This Mikrotik 3011 is in fact so cheap for a router with this kind of extras, that it is a bargain. The people that install electrical and phone wiring most likely will take 10x the price of the router, so in this renovation the price of the device that will provide you all the ports you need and allow for further expansion and control of the network is insignificant compared to the whole amount.
I do not sell Mikrotiks. I am just their fan. Because alternatives are either expensive or extremely dumb devices.
For example, VPNs, decent network firewall, the possibility of creating separate networks and managing flow of data between them is something that is used every day. Especially VPN-s. For example the boss says "I need to be able to work from home", which means accessing local network resources. If you go for dumb network device, this device has no such capabilities or options. There is hardly any workaround other than replacing it.
Mikrotiks provide flexibility. They seem complex, but not so hard to understand. Flexibility and number of ports means that you can easily manage any new challenge provided. Especially for routers, the maxima "Go big or go home" is true. And custom firmware on cheepy router is usually unstable, it's for enthusiasts, not if you require something solid. It's your decision what you will do, but good router is fundamental for any business today. And you can also throw out the old switch and have gigabit network. This router even provides POE on some of it's ports.(disabled by default, must be specifically enabled for POE ports to provide any power)
If you design the network properly, you can easily modify things according your needs. Even gigabit TPLink routers and with only 4 ports come about 1/3 and 1/2 of the price of this one. And then you will need switch, because 4 ports are hardly adequate today.
From here, you know me well enough already. I have tendency to go big, and up to this moment I was never wrong doing so in my line of work. I have also done is the past something like you want to do now. Almost always this backfired after some time. I prefer to do it one time and then not to need to waste time fixing problems. I have learned the hard way that trying to go cheap almost always leads to wasting more money.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Cameras have their own POE dvr

We don't need that big of a router. Again, very small computing space.

Before, they used the old dlink switch built into this small shitty router, which I'll be replacing. I've found for this business, they have very small needs

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

Then only replace tplink routers and switches with gigabit zyxel switch and replace the router with mikrotik 3011. Cameras require bandwidth. And TPLink switch is not adequate.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

It's a smaaal office. Like four computers. No multiple users. For the most part just the boss and maybe one employee use the front computer for incoming orders and quickbooks processing

Boss has two back ones. One for quickbooks employee checks and one to work on the catalog

We don't need a server. Maybe a nas but that's stretching it

Of course gigabit lan. It's a tp-link 16 port. We don't need anything super expensive

It will be a very small office inside a warehouse environment. Metalworking shop.

It's not ftp but base copper. He will have 12 poe cameras inside and out. We already got 2000 ft of it. The warehouse is ~250 ft long. I think the contractor will run the camera wires and drop them in the back supply office. But I run them in the office while it's still being built

[ratdude747]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

CAT5E. CAT6 isn't worth the extra cost or hassle. Gigabit is plenty for most office applications I find... even for large file transfers the connection isn't the bottleneck.

Harbor Fright makes a long semi-flexible drill bit for drilling sill plates from a low mounted receptacle hole. Has a hole in it to tie the wire to on the end so you can use the bit to pull the wire through when you're done. I used low voltage drywall rings and 6 hole keystone plates when I CAT5'd my house a few years ago... keystone fillers are cheap, and it allows me to easily add additional jacks in the future.

Don't buy jacks from china. A lot of them are cheap knockoffs/fakes and don't work at all. Generic ones on ebay from US sellers (no-name) seem to be OK though. I bought some supposedly TE connectivity ones direct from china and they were bad fakes and I ended up redoing every single wall jack in the house. Not fun!

Use the "B" wiring layout when crimping or punching down. I used "A", only to find the standard is "B". "A" works, but makes things a PITA for the next guy (as I found out when I was helping the fiber guy install my internet connection).

Cable: Make sure you get solid copper wire. None of that cheapass copper clad junk. It can't be used for POE, and even if you're not using it now, somebody might in the future and once again, it's a future headache. I bought some Hosiwell cable for cheap... it's a major brand in Taiwan apparently (or thialand, can't remember which)... good cable indeed. I do run POE on some of it (security cameras) and it hasn't had any issues.

Patch panels: I used keystone panels... not as space efficient as dedicated CAT5/CAT6 punch panels, but I wanted the flexibility of choosing whatever jack I want per location. I had a full height rack to play with (which I'm using less than a 3rd of), so space wasn't a concern for me. In addition to ethernet connections, I also have a phone line (connection to my Magic Jack and Ring booster shelf, main phone line for house) and a couple of server USB connections running through my keystone panels.

[televizora]

Re: Wiring ethernet in new office

I'm honestly not sure how it will end up. If the ceiling has removable tiles or not. Do I just run it above the tiles and down each wall? Should I have used STP? I actually got 5e utp, but it's not a big office space

STP is a little overkill. I would go with FTP. But Cat5e today is the bare minimum. Perhaps there would be a file server of some kind. Local network traffic requires bandwidth. I currently operate a number of networking devices. Mikrotik 3011 is a good and capable router for it's price. 1Gbps ports. You will also need 1Gbps switch. 1Gbps today is the bare minimum for adequate network. You don't need pipes for the FTP cables.
Avoid DLink and these kinds of brands. For networking, you go either Mikrotik, partially UBNT or something like Zyxel. The quality of the DLink equipment is not great. Linksys is somewhat questionable today. Cisco is not bad, but expensive. Forget about cheepy solutions like WR740G for main router and 100mbps switch. Mikrotik has the best price-performance ratio. Also, I know thing or two and could provide some assistance. For file server, go for Windows Server Essentials. Most computers will be running Windows. Having computers in active directory, centrally managed and restricting the users, combined with accessing network resources via credentials adds very good level of security. There are also Linux solutions, but are somewhat basic. Using NAS for something that requires serious storage is not a good idea.
You can also use FTP cables for the telephone lines. They work just fine. Avoid putting low voltage cables next to power lines. Actually, there is a requirement that forbids this, but people usually do it anyway. Also, you don't really need to drill walls. There is a plastic floor skirting with cavity designed specifically so you can run cables inside it. Usually you can run at least 2-3 FTP cables inside.
When you must go thru walls, you can just remove the decorative side plates of the door and run the cables behind it between the wall and the door frame. It's tricky, but you can make the cabling almost invisible. And almost no drilling thru walls will be required.
As for the server, you can buy something like HP ProLiant DL360p Gen8, if you plan to have a rack. Or Proliant tower. Better to have some sort of rack and not just putting routers, switches and servers onto the ground.
Also, using CCA is bad. If you want reliable network go for copper cables.
When you are using drywall and wood it's easy to drill. I share my experience from a country, where reinforced concrete and bricks are used.
Not so easy to drill. And not a fun at all.
But, you haven't said what "small office" means, what is the purpose of this office, what will be done there and the budget.
Cable going from the ceiling straight down is not only unaesthetic, but is usually much more troublesome.