Firewire Hot Swap Question

[ArmoredFist1994]

I've got firewire ports on my older (BTW it's recapped) FV25 Shuttle motherboard.

I plugged an external hard drive, which was off, into the firewire port then turned it on via the switch. The drive has external power and is not powered by the firewire port. As soon as I turned it on, the computer rebooted.

I somehow thought firewire was "hot swappable" but obviously in this case it is not.

I've got a simple question: Did I physically damage any hardware? (I don't care about windows OS "damage" or any software "damage".

I'm guessing, no, since the drive works after turning the firewire device on then booting the PC.

It always bugs me when wierd things like this happen to my computers!!!

[ArmoredFist1994]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

I've got firewire ports on my older (BTW it's recapped) FV25 Shuttle motherboard.

I plugged an external hard drive, which was off, into the firewire port then turned it on via the switch. The drive has external power and is not powered by the firewire port. As soon as I turned it on, the computer rebooted.

The computer was on, running Windows XP. The drive was off, then turned on. The computer rebooted abruptly when I switched it on.

(for some reason i was unable to edit my original post)

[KeriJane]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

Hi ArmoredFist!

I don't think that's normal behavior for Firewire.

I've been using Firewire 400 and Firewire 800 external drives, camcorders, video capture equipment and even an iSight camera for years on both PC and Mac.... Firewire has never had an issue with being plugged into a running system for me. Just plug it in and turn the device on, Windows (or Mac OS) detects it and there it is. Disconnect is just as straightforward, though you're supposed to "Safely Remove Hardware" in Windows or "Eject Drive" in Mac.

In the case of my Canopus ADVC300, warnings are given about turning it on or off when the computer is in "Off", "Sleep" or "Standby" modes as this can potentially cause the computer to not boot.

eSATA on the other hand can be incredibly fussy. If you have a eSATA controller that's part of an Intel chipset (like the Red eSATA port on an Intel P35 board) the system must be shut down before activating or disconnecting the external drive.
Curiously, eSATA based on Realtek SATA chips are hot swappable.

Oddly, Firewire 400 is technically "slower" than USB2.0 (at 480) but not in the real world! FW400 transfers data much faster.

Have Fun!
Keri

[ArmoredFist1994]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

Hi ArmoredFist!

Firewire has never had an issue with being plugged into a running system for me. Just plug it in and turn the device on, Windows (or Mac OS) detects it and there it is. Disconnect is just as straightforward, though you're supposed to "Safely Remove Hardware" in Windows or "Eject Drive" in Mac.


Oddly, Firewire 400 is technically "slower" than USB2.0 (at 480) but not in the real world! FW400 transfers data much faster.

Have Fun!
Keri

Thanks for the reassurance. After hearing that, I don't believe I did anything bad to my recently recapped pc (which is was I was worried about.)

My computer is used for evidence collection using forensic programs like FTK imager and EnCase. Those programs are apparently incredibly demanding as my CPU temp goes way up when I'm running them. Actually the whole rig could be considered unstable when running that stuff (which I was when it rebooted) so unusual behavior is expected.

Interesting to hear your thoughts on USB. USB 2.0 has proven to be unsuitable for imaging large amounts of data as it freezes midway sometimes. Firewire 400 is very reliable, I've found.

Thanks for the response.

[KeriJane]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

Ummm...

Using a small, highly stressed system that tends to overheat might not be such a great idea for professional use.
In addition to the annoying instability, the chance of errors increase, and Forensics doesn't sound like a field where there's a lot of tolerance for error be it simple human mispelting or data errors that might be insignificant in Gaming or even Video Editing. I'll betcha that somebody isn't going to like it if a checksum gets screwed up.


Just suggesting that maybe a more capable system might be a good idea,
Keri

[Per Hansson]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

Just a thought, I usually power the drive on and then connect it
Something in me just feels it is more "correct" (not that it should matter)

But maybe the drive was trying to startup using current from the firewire port or something stupid like that...

Anyway, yea, firewire is hot swappable

[Wizard]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

Change that shuttle for more standard and stable PC. It is not suitable for your line of work where data intergarity is VITAL.

Cheers, Wizard

[ArmoredFist1994]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

I hear you about the shuttle board. The catch is the imaging computer has to have that mini form-factor because it fits into a luggable case with built in lcd screen. It's in between a laptop and desktop, closer to desktop because I need molex connectors hanging out and IDE data cables, SATA cables, etc. that notebooks don't have. Unfortunately, I'm kind of stuck with the shuttle board for a while which is why I went ahead and recapped it. Those special-purpose, special-form factor computers are expensive and this one made sense to repair instead of replace. The thing is a workhorse, and pretty reliable.

For clarification, the computer has never overheated, it merely gets hotter when running the forensic programs than anything else. Including Intelburntest, and prime95. I keep an eye on it with speedfan and other heat monitoring programs. I actually have standard desktop computers for the same work in the office and any computer is "unstable" when running forensic programs since they're incredibly demanding.

And absolutely, all data is checked, verified and re-verified with an MD5 hash. If hashes don't match, it's re-acquired but I've never had that problem.

I'd say that it's probably Windows that's unstable when running those programs and probably not the computer itself. I do have to pretty much leave it alone when imaging.

Thanks for the firewire input.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

Pins in firewire connector may be shorting as you are plugging it in.

.

[Wizard]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

I understand.

Is board VIA chipset based? There are shuttle boards that fits in same case but use far more reliable intel chipset. Intel did make 815 chipset for socket 370, 512MB ram. Is this sufficient? And I'm sure shuttle do have that board.

Firewire needs capacitors too, have you checked there?

Cheers, Wizard

[bgavin]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

VIA...



Another problem with firewire used in recording interfaces is the choice of chipset. The ones that work are the Texas Instrument chips. A significant number (almost all) the current FW soundcards are using some anti-jitter chipset that is causing no end of problems.

FW performs very well, but is quite finicky about drivers. The Mac doesn't suffer this problem, as it is a closed system.

I've seen users try and force a USB connector in upside down. That does indeed short the pins and crowbars the power supply. Instant power down. The ones I've seen were not fatal to hardware.

[ArmoredFist1994]

Re: Firewire Hot Swap Question

This special purpose luggable desktop does indeed contain a VIA chipset. I use the VIA hardware monitor to keep an eye on the temp. Yeah, it's not the highest quality and we definitely all got defrauded with the bad caps thing.

Everything works now so I'm not worried about it. The firewire plug was in but the system rebooted only when I applied power to the firewire hard drive. There was no way I shorted anything out plugging it in...if I did, there was no sign of it. I was running an intensive program at the time and I think Windows might have been trying to run the found new hardware routine....I don't really know for sure.

As far as upgrading it to a different board, I've thought about it but it made sense to just recap what was there.

And yes....my family broke a USB connector once, allowing it to be inserted upside down... which of course is what eventually happened resulting in a very bad smell. The PC degraded and stopped booting about 90 days later. I threw the whole carcass in the trash can. I wasn't too upset because it was a loud, cheap e-machines that wasn't that great in the 1st place!