Industry-standard filesystem???

[Shocker]

I first mentioned this in another thread, but I find the idea interesting enough to warrant creating a poll.

The reason I'm thinking about this because Microsoft has their proprietary NTFS for which cross-compatibility can only be achieved by reverse-engineering. Linux has its "ext#" line of filesystems which Microsoft obviously doesn't support in Windows by default (undoubtedly on purpose). I know there is an IFS for Windows providing ext2 and partial ext3 support, but wouldn't it be better if they could agree to use the same system(s) industry-wide???

Let's not forget these Microsoft blunders:

• Windows 8 and its ridiculous interface
• Their decision to block second-hand games on the next Xbox

Currently I'm running Windows XP, but I forsee building a separate system with Linux. Different software is acceptable, but I would really love it if you could use the same data drives in both systems.

(As mentioned above, I may actually do that. If I set up a Linux system, that is...)

[joshnz]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

There is sort of a standard fs fat16 and fat32 are sortof supported by almost everything. Big problem will be getting microsoft to take up somthing they not in control of and can't make money from

[ratdude747]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Not gonna happen. MS and GPL/CC don't mix.

[mariushm]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Almost everything Linux supports in its filesystems is supported on Windows os'es ... you can even use / instead of \ in file names since ages ago.

Standards are nice, but who's standard? It's not a question of a standard OS being better than others, NTFS is better than Linux filesystems for some things, Linus filesystems are better at other things.

Why not make a standard from Apple and Microsoft filesystems and drop every file system Linux has? Who are you to judge that Linux filesystems are better than Apple's filesystem or Microsoft's system...

Anyway, you continue to call some things blunders when it's obviously YOUR opinion, not everyone's. It may very well seem to you as a blunder but for Microsoft, considering their future strategy and how markets evolve, it may make perfect sense and it may be the only way forward.

I don't even understand where you're coming from with this question, did you even bother to think what would be involved if the operating systems were to change to another filesystem?

Another point... Linux in general and linux filesystems and schedulers were for a long time optimized and designed for servers, for big hardware, for network attached storage, for clusters, for various server architectures.. the filesystems weren't particularly designed with home user in mind.

Only recently efforts are made by Ubuntu and other companies to make Linux more home user friendly, making the GUI more easy, offering schedulers more tuned for types of applications that are usually ran at home..

Microsoft has a different history, they had to design FAT16 and FAT32 with speed in mind and less about security of data, because this was for home users and small, slow, computers.

NTFS was designed for Windows NT which was a server operating system, so it was slower than FAT32 but added journals, recovery of data on crashes, transparent file compression or encryption.

Apple did its own thing with filesystems they took from BSD, and improved upon them.


Also, In linux almost everything is designed to be a file, and other operating systems work differently, they have other concepts, it makes no sense to include in an industry standard file system something that a particular OS doesn't have use for.

Now neither NTFS or Linux filesystems are optimal, all of them kinda suck for SSDs, flash media, stuff that has limited write cycles.
But you can't just make an industry standard file system, because that would suck at everything, it would be a compromise between all filesystems.

I won't even bother voting on such poll.

[Shocker]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Almost everything Linux supports in its filesystems is supported on Windows os'es ... you can even use / instead of \ in file names since ages ago.

Standards are nice, but who's standard? It's not a question of a standard OS being better than others, NTFS is better than Linux filesystems for some things, Linus filesystems are better at other things.

Why not make a standard from Apple and Microsoft filesystems and drop every file system Linux has? Who are you to judge that Linux filesystems are better than Apple's filesystem or Microsoft's system...

Nice job missing the point again. That isn't even what I'm talking about.

Anyway, you continue to call some things blunders when it's obviously YOUR opinion, not everyone's. It may very well seem to you as a blunder but for Microsoft, considering their future strategy and how markets evolve, it may make perfect sense and it may be the only way forward.

You don't seem to have cared to research the opinion of anyone else.

The usability experts hate Windows 8. Almost everyone else here hates it. They're shoving an interface ill-suited to desktop use onto the desktop.

Blocking second-hand games is a greedy, asshole-ish decision. It's excusable for downloads, but plainly ridiculous for disc-based games. You also have to be connected to the internet while you're playing said games, and internet in some areas (like at my house) can be absolutely horrible. And I can tell you already that I will not buy it.

I don't even understand where you're coming from with this question, did you even bother to think what would be involved if the operating systems were to change to another filesystem?

I AM NOT SAYING this is easy. I'm getting sick of you making all these assumptions that this or that is what I'm saying. Say what you like, you are NOT coming off my Ignore List.

I'm just conceiving the idea that an industry standard would be better in the long run.

Only recently efforts are made by Ubuntu and other companies to make Linux more home user friendly, making the GUI more easy, offering schedulers more tuned for types of applications that are usually ran at home..

Um...sure, it wasn't originally designed for home use, but Windows 8 may be bad enough that Linux could actually be more tolerable. (To be fair, I haven't actually tried Windows 8 myself. But it doesn't sound promising...)

Microsoft has a different history, they had to design FAT16 and FAT32 with speed in mind and less about security of data, because this was for home users and small, slow, computers.

So...it wasn't ME who brought that up. Anyway, I know such outdated filesystems are not sufficient for modern needs.

Now neither NTFS or Linux filesystems are optimal, all of them kinda suck for SSDs, flash media, stuff that has limited write cycles.
But you can't just make an industry standard file system, because that would suck at everything, it would be a compromise between all filesystems.

Tell me why standards have to suck. HDDs use industry standard interfaces and you don't complain about those. Images use JPG and PNG and you don't complain about those. Webpages use HTML and you don't complain about that. Stop being so overly pessimistic.

I didn't say this is going to happen. That's why there's an option in the poll for "not going to happen". For the time being, if I build a Linux system (I said it would be a SEPARATE system, not a replacement for my XP system), I'm going to use that thing I linked in the first post.

You're also guilty of T.M.R. - too much rambling.

[joshnz]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

In my post above I was talking about adding a file system that Linux core and windows core supports with no modification just like CD's and DVD's have their own file systems.

The way I was thinking to implement it was a file system for usb based drives so it would be truly plug and play meaning also things like pvr's and other multimedia devices can access files of more than 2GB and disks 3TB or more.
the only downside will be Microsoft's 256 character file + path name limitation.

[mariushm]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

You don't seem to have cared to research the opinion of anyone else.

The usability experts hate Windows 8. Almost everyone else here hates it. They're shoving an interface ill-suited to desktop use onto the desktop.

Microsoft doesn't give a f*@k about usability experts. They KNOW the usability sucks and they don't care. They know the interface is ill-suited for desktops and again, they don't care.
They have to re-invent themselves.

Their marketshare is no longer 98% or more, as it was when imac was around. Now Apple rips chunks of their market share with mac pro, ipad, ipad 2, even iphone. Mobile computing is more powerful and HTML4, javascript and all related stuff make more apps runnable from mobile devices.
The desktop is basically slowly becoming irrelevant. Market demands thinner, lighter, cooler devices.
Sure, Windows still has 90% of the desktops:



But how many people have Androids, how many have Iphones, Ipads, how much time do they spend in front of PC compared to mobile devices?

As Linux and Apple grows, Microsoft is slowly becoming less of an monopoly, so it's no longer scrutinized that much.

With Windows 8 they're basically paving their way into becoming what Apple does now with Macs - they want to make money by making their own app store, developers paying them to get their apps reviewed, removing apps that compete with Microsoft apps .. a walled garden.
Right now, it wouldn't be possible, they're still too much of a big player but that doesn't mean it's not time to "train" users to accept the interface.
They're slowly training users with that Windows 8 interface to become CONSUMERS, to watch tv, to run single apps in full screen and so on.

Again, they know the usability sucks, but think of how many patents they have to go around regarding interfaces.... Apple would sue them instantly if they made some things work as people probably expect, like on iPhone or Samsung phones. Apple has even patented slide to unlock, rounded corners and lot of crap.

So back to the walled garden.. you can see that with Windows RT, the Windows 8 that runs on ARM. Why do you think on that they actually have a Microsoft store running, and you have to use that to run apps? Because it's ARM, not x86, it's not a question of monopoly in the market, they're a minor player there so they can do what Apple did with their iPhones and iPods.

In a few years, desktops will become less relevant like I said and that's why they're doing the Surface thing and if users are going to get accustomed with the Windows 8 interface, maybe they'll grab a Surface pro instead of an iPad at Christmas or for their birthday.

They had concepts about Surface for probably more than a decade now, it's just that the hardware finally got cheap enough to be affordable for them.

Blocking second-hand games is a greedy, asshole-ish decision. It's excusable for downloads, but plainly ridiculous for disc-based games. You also have to be connected to the internet while you're playing said games, and internet in some areas (like at my house) can be absolutely horrible. And I can tell you already that I will not buy it.

And as for consoles... they know blocking second hand games is a dick move for consumers, but it's something to lock players in, to bring them more profit, and IT'S WHAT GAME STUDIOS WANT BUT DON'T ADMIT IT.

You're in Australia, I'm in Romania.. but the closest analogy I can come to is Ticketmaster in US. They know their service sucks, bands and organizers know they suck, but they all use it because Ticketmaster takes the blame for a lot of fees they charge above what bands "officially" charge for concerts (like parking fee, ticket printing fee, convenience fees) but a large percent of those fees eventually go to organizers and bands. It just makes the bands and organizers look better.
Just the same, it's easier for Microsoft and Sony to take the blame, all studios saying "we have no choice, we'd like second hand games to exist, but they don't want to" but you bet they'll like the profits.
They already do that on PCs and with various games, "season tickets", first day DLCs, in-game purchases... linking your game's serial code to your online account so that your retail copy can't be sold anymore...

Steam has millions of players and they're accustomed to "renting" games.. they know people WILL get accustomed to downloadable games only.

If you pay attention, you can see that consoles are slowly starting to be basically pcs.. PS4 will be x86 based, with probably an AMD cpu and GPU, Xbox will be also pc based just like xbox 360 was, next wii will also have some AMD video card.
It costs too much money and developers don't want to work on 3-4 different versions of consoles so the hardware will soon pretty much be identical performance wise.
So Microsoft has to lock players into using their consoles and an easy way is by renting games instead of selling them a retail game.

In addition, they have to push for Internet usage so that they'll know people will have the console by the big tv, the console has internet, so you bet they'll push for Internet TV .. and guess what's coming in 2013: http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/21/3...streaming-2013

They're just expanding the sources of income from the console and trying to get more people locked in... the Kinect is not enough to make people buy Kinect.


So I was bothered by the word you used, "blunder"... that implies they screwed up. My opinion is that they didn't screw up, but rather they did it on purpose and they're doing it on purpose.

Um...sure, it wasn't originally designed for home use, but Windows 8 may be bad enough that Linux could actually be more tolerable. (To be fair, I haven't actually tried Windows 8 myself. But it doesn't sound promising...)

Yeah, people said the same thing about Windows XP. I personally never used Windows XP on my home computer because I hated the interface. I wonder how many people actually gave up in the end and tried XP and got used to it.
Here's just on a quick search showing people arguing why XP was bad: http://www.walshcomptech.com/no-xp.htm and http://lateblt.tripod.com/whyxpbad.htm
People got used to it and moved on.
People also hated Vista but like Windows 7... some don't like Windows 7 at all but like Windows XP. You can't please everyone.

They'll get used to Windows 8 just the same, or it will be treated like Windows Me or Vista and people will just love Windows 9 that will come more polished - either way, Microsoft achieves their purpose to get users trained in the new interface.

Tell me why standards have to suck. HDDs use industry standard interfaces and you don't complain about those. Images use JPG and PNG and you don't complain about those. Webpages use HTML and you don't complain about that. Stop being so overly pessimistic.

Let's see about standard interfaces... PATA, SATA, eSata, SAS, SCSI, Fibre channel, Infiniband, Thunderdbold, Firewire, mSata (yes, ok, still sata but different connectors and form factor), ssd on pci express, ... which standard are you talking about?

You're also guilty of T.M.R. - too much rambling.

Most of the time I work all night, and it's the same today, I'm writing this at 8 am after a night of no sleep. If I don't make sense at some points or make mistakes, it happens.

[mariushm]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

The way I was thinking to implement it was a file system for usb based drives so it would be truly plug and play meaning also things like pvr's and other multimedia devices can access files of more than 2GB and disks 3TB or more.
the only downside will be Microsoft's 256 character file + path name limitation.

There's no 256 character file and path limitation on Windows OS'es.
Just bad developers not using the Unicode functions in the operating system.

The whole path can be up to about 62000 bytes (not characters, because a character can be up to 3-4 bytes in Unicode)

[joshnz]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

There's no 256 character file and path limitation on Windows OS'es.
Just bad developers not using the Unicode functions in the operating system.

The whole path can be up to about 62000 bytes (not characters, because a character can be up to 3-4 bytes in Unicode)

Hmm if I create a path longer than 256 I can't copy it to a new location.

I just created A folder in a root folder D:\ for example.

1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

I get this when I try to create a new folder


And when to create a new file


and when to copy a file there

[Shocker]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Microsoft doesn't give a f*@k about usability experts. They KNOW the usability sucks and they don't care. They know the interface is ill-suited for desktops and again, they don't care.

I view it as sabotage. Even Windows Server 2012 has Metro.

The desktop is basically slowly becoming irrelevant. Market demands thinner, lighter, cooler devices.

Debatable, but I highly doubt laptops will die and they're used with most of the same software as desktop systems.

As Linux and Apple grows, Microsoft is slowly becoming less of an monopoly, so it's no longer scrutinized that much.

Making cross-compatibility a bigger factor...

In a few years, desktops will become less relevant like I said and that's why they're doing the Surface thing and if users are going to get accustomed with the Windows 8 interface, maybe they'll grab a Surface pro instead of an iPad at Christmas or for their birthday.

I'll keep using PCs myself. Anyway, the simple fact is, you cannot type well using a touchscreen-based device.

And as for consoles... they know blocking second hand games is a dick move for consumers, but it's something to lock players in, to bring them more profit, and IT'S WHAT GAME STUDIOS WANT BUT DON'T ADMIT IT.

They get less profit if customers refuse to buy the consoles and games as a result. Not saying everyone will stop buying them, but if word gets out...who knows.

They already do that on PCs and with various games, "season tickets", first day DLCs, in-game purchases... linking your game's serial code to your online account so that your retail copy can't be sold anymore...

I know they do. But there are these things called "cracks". I don't care that they're illegal; at least it's POSSIBLE to "get your way". As long as you legitimately bought the game, I don't think it's immoral.

Yeah, people said the same thing about Windows XP. I personally never used Windows XP on my home computer because I hated the interface.

Windows 8 is a lot more radical than XP.

Let's see about standard interfaces... PATA, SATA, eSata, SAS, SCSI, Fibre channel, Infiniband, Thunderdbold, Firewire, mSata (yes, ok, still sata but different connectors and form factor), ssd on pci express, ... which standard are you talking about?

In the sense of being used across the industry vs. by only 1 or 2 companies.

[Kiriakos GR]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Even the software platforms ( Operating System ) it is a merchandize.
Instead expecting from others to make the right choices for you, why you do not make your own for your self's ?
Maintaining compatibility is our responsibility as consumers.
I have four systems with XP Pro and no second thoughts for what ever upgrades.

[mariushm]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Hmm if I create a path longer than 256 I can't copy it to a new location.

That's because Windows Explorer uses the Windows API which has some preset limits in order to maintain compatibility with older Windows versions.
Windows Explorer also restricts you from ending a file with a dot (aka having an empty file extension) even though it's legal to do so, and other things. It does a lot of things to prevent stupid people from breaking stuff up.
But in the end it's just an application.

See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...%29.aspx#paths

Basically, with your D:\A folder... you can open a command prompt and do stuff like

C:\>MD "\\?\D:\A\as many characters as you want, knock yourself out"

c:\>RMDIR "\\?\D:\A\as many characters as you want, knock yourself out" <- to delete it, Windows explorer won't be able to delete it if you use more than 260 characters in total including "d:\a\"

you can test with files as well

d:\a>copy con a.txt
< type some letters and press Ctrl+Z to end the file, this basically creates a a.txt and saves what you type in it>

(or just create a text file with notepad in the folder)

d:\a>copy \\?\d:\a\a.txt \\?\d:\a\a.

and now you have a file called "a." in your folder that windows explorer won't know what to do with it, and notepad won't open, for example, because both use the classic windows api with its limitation for compatibility purposes.

You can delete it easily with

d:\a>del \\?\d:\a\a.

- and I was wrong, it's not 62000 characters, it's 32767 bytes which can be as much as 32767 characters if only ascii characters are used

[joshnz]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

That's because Windows Explorer uses the Windows API which has some preset limits in order to maintain compatibility with older Windows versions.
Windows Explorer also restricts you from ending a file with a dot (aka having an empty file extension) even though it's legal to do so, and other things. It does a lot of things to prevent stupid people from breaking stuff up.
But in the end it's just an application.

See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...%29.aspx#paths

Basically, with your D:\A folder... you can open a command prompt and do stuff like

C:\>MD "\\?\D:\A\as many characters as you want, knock yourself out"

c:\>RMDIR "\\?\D:\A\as many characters as you want, knock yourself out" <- to delete it, Windows explorer won't be able to delete it if you use more than 260 characters in total including "d:\a\"

you can test with files as well

d:\a>copy con a.txt
< type some letters and press Ctrl+Z to end the file, this basically creates a a.txt and saves what you type in it>

(or just create a text file with notepad in the folder)

d:\a>copy \\?\d:\a\a.txt \\?\d:\a\a.

and now you have a file called "a." in your folder that windows explorer won't know what to do with it, and notepad won't open, for example, because both use the classic windows api with its limitation for compatibility purposes.

You can delete it easily with

d:\a>del \\?\d:\a\a.

- and I was wrong, it's not 62000 characters, it's 32767 bytes which can be as much as 32767 characters if only ascii characters are used

I knew about the file system not been a limit but explorer imposes it I use windows for just that the interface and compatibility. (but i guess compatibility comes at a price)

My brain must have had a glitch I don't know why I thought file name was a windows core thing.

[tmiha71]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

Thinking MariusHM is quite right (all thigs said in post 10 to nail down original statements are pretty irrelevant, no offense Shocker) because new users (driving force for word MARKET) did get their computing expirience from mobile-phones -> smaler (but capable) devices (and they do their upgrades with new device, NOT new component), and the word AVALABILITY (allways at hand) and IMPROVEMENTS (better camera, better UI, and so on..), are NEW RULES of computing (as noted before NEW DEVICE)...

Will give +1 to statement "The desktop is basically slowly becoming irrelevant." - they will not die, like hammer did not die, but will share the same faith ....

Laptop's are probbably more in danger in confronting with mobile devices (tablets/phones, etc..), at least in consumer part of market, faith of hammer is inevitable for them too...

By the way this thread went OFF-TOPIC

[Shocker]

Re: Industry-standard filesystem???

My point is not that smaller devices aren't "capable", but that they aren't as usable as desktops or even laptops. Go on, try writing an article on a tablet and tell me how that turns out.

Keyboards may be "low-tech" but they're a lot better at what they're designed for than touchscreens.