Building my first HTPC

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I can't think of a good reason to -unbuild- an antenna to not get stations that aren't there anyway.

We only get OTA. Don't need or want anything else.
My wife already records far more than I'm willing to watch and twice what she has time to watch.
More shows would be useless.

If she wasn't around I'd never turn the stupid thing on.
I hadn't owned one for several years when I met her.
.

[bgavin]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I think I'm gonna stick to OTA HD + Satellite. If it wasn't for live sports and specialty channels (like Discovery and History) I'd be satisfied with just the OTA stuff.

Here is the TV Fool report for my specific address, with the antenna 20 feet above ground level.

My area is in a well documented depression which shows up as a blue area on all the TV coverage maps.
Despite this, I get excellent reception with a modest antenna height.

If you are into rolling your own, there are some very smart guys on the Digital Home forum, out of Canada.
Pay special attention to the Gray-Hoverman project.

My U8000 is designed as UHF only, but I get VHF 9 (PBS) and 10 (ABC) very strong anyway. Go figure.
In Canada, you are set to lose channels > 51 next year, or thereabouts. It has already happened here in the US.
Antennas are optimized for the highest working channel, so > 51 is a waste nowadays.

The only antenna I am aware of being designed for the reduced channel range in the US is Denny's HD Stacker.
He is a TV tech in Michigan, and had Winegard build an antenna to his specs.
His test results are testimonial to excellent results for both VHF and UHF.

The problem with OTA is the content.
I'm not interested in SitComs and cop shows, so OTA is limited for me.
Satellite/Cable is much higher quality than Internet, much less "fiddly" than antennas and HTPC, but very costly.
If you just want to sit on your butt and use the simple remote, Satellite/Cable is where it's at. But you pay dearly for it.

My erratic internet was running at 5.1 Mbps last night, and HULU (free) was still choking. NetFlix is much better, but their HD image quality is nowhere close to a real DVD.
I bumped up from 1.5 to 6.0, and the performance is very ragged.
Something is broken at the switching office... < sigh > it never ends.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I think I'm gonna stick to OTA HD + Satellite.

.
Over-the-air HDTV can be received using a regular TV antenna.
Not a digital antenna, not an hdtv antenna, just a plain old-fashioned tv antenna.

The frequencies are all the same as old-fashioned tv.
The signal strength is a little less, that's all that has really changed.
You -might- need a plain old-fashioned tv antenna amp to go with the old-fashioned tv antenna, but that's ALL you should need.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Building my first HTPC

For starters, the video streamers don't transmit movies in 16 colors.

The point is 1080x does not make the -content- HD.
--
Some broadcasters are using 1080x and reducing the image quality to reduce their bandwidth load.
The result is SD quality with a 1080x resolution.

-- And that will affect the bandwidth you need to view it.
.

Personally SD is good enough for me but some people are paying more to get HD quality and only actually getting SD and don't know it.
.

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I think I'm gonna stick to OTA HD + Satellite. If it wasn't for live sports and specialty channels (like Discovery and History) I'd be satisfied with just the OTA stuff. I have 7.0 Mbps service but with a stupid cap on bandwidth means I can't rely solely on the internet.

Bgavin you just unintentionally reminded me that I don't need to buy a tuner card yet to test out what channels I can get OTA. I forgot that my new Sony TV has the digital tuner built in so all I need is the antenna to try it out.

[bgavin]

Re: Building my first HTPC

For starters, the video streamers don't transmit movies in 16 colors.

@Deft:
MPEG2 is different from MPEG4

Link to compression formats

Link to Bandwidth of Commercial Streamers

Bit Rate Comparison Table

After kicking DirectTV to the curb, I installed an Antenna Craft U8000 8-bay antenna on a chimney mast. Using www.tvfool.com as a guide, I found I needed 40 feet above ground for LOS (line of sight) access to all the broadcasters in my area for perfect reception.

Real world testing with the antenna at 20 feet above ground gives me worst-case 6 out of 10 bars on the new Samsung TV.
The HDTV image quality is FAR better than anything I have yet to get from either HULU or NetFlix.
Check out the last link above, and note that over the air broadcasts have a very high bit rate.

HULU still chokes, stutters and stammers on my new 6 Mbs connection, so I canceled my paying subscription last night.
NetFlix is far better at avoiding these delivery drop-outs.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Building my first HTPC

1080p is a screen resolution, it's not a measure of content quality.
You could stream 1080p in 16 colors and it wouldn't take much bandwidth at all.

Streaming bandwidth will depend on the resolution, content quality, and the encoding method used as broadcast/streamed.
MPEG2 is not the same as MPEG4 and so on..
.

[bgavin]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I'm just curious how much bandwidth is needed for 1080p streaming?

I'm really curious too... I've got the HULU-Plus (pay) service, and it stutters and chokes something awful. I'm convinced it is not a network issue, because I connect it directly to my public-facing static IP (no router) and it does the same thing.

The TRACERT below is to hulu.com from my primary workstation inside a NAT'ed network. Note the asterisk for a timeout at the HULU hosting site at nlayer.net. My forwarding DNS is on my domain controller as a VM guest under ESXi 4.1.

The connection is currently a 3.0 Mbps rated connection delivering a steady 2.5 Mbps. I've got a new request in to punch it up to 6 Mbps. The price is OK, and more than covered by the savings of kicking DirectTV to the curb.

C:\>tracert hulu.com

Tracing route to hulu.com [69.22.138.123]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 3 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 1.235.125.209.transedge.com [209.125.235.1]
3 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms 33.4.233.64.transedge.com [64.233.4.33]
4 14 ms 14 ms 15 ms gi10-0.250.border1.rap.sjc.transedge.com [216.217.2.245]
5 14 ms 14 ms 14 ms border1.eqx.sjc.transedge.com [216.217.0.40]
6 24 ms 22 ms 21 ms equinix.xe-2-0-0.cr1.sjc1.us.nlayer.net [206.223.116.61]
7 22 ms * 22 ms ae1-40g.ar2.sjc1.us.nlayer.net [69.22.143.118]
8 22 ms 22 ms 23 ms ip-69-22-138-123.nlayer.net [69.22.138.123]

Trace complete.

C:\>nslookup 69.22.143.118
Server: vm-dc1.office.compudox.com
Address: 192.168.0.20

Name: ae1-40g.ar2.sjc1.us.nlayer.net
Address: 69.22.143.118


C:\>nslookup 69.22.138.123
Server: vm-dc1.office.compudox.com
Address: 192.168.0.20

Name: ip-69-22-138-123.nlayer.net
Address: 69.22.138.123

[shovenose]

Re: Building my first HTPC

They capped your bandwidtch? Lol recap it

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I have a 3mb connection that delivers 2.6 continuously to the wired router.
This drops to about 2.2 after passing through a Linksys access point working as a wireless client to the router. 2.2mb ain't enough to stream HD. I have a brand new Samsung Series 650.

I'm just curious how much bandwidth is needed for 1080p streaming? I don't really intend on streaming 1080p video from the internet because my shitty ISP has me capped at 60GB/month.

[bgavin]

Re: Building my first HTPC

One last thing, if you are connecting 54g wireless, you may not be able to stream 1080p content (link saturation).

I have a 3mb connection that delivers 2.6 continuously to the wired router.
This drops to about 2.2 after passing through a Linksys access point working as a wireless client to the router. 2.2mb ain't enough to stream HD. I have a brand new Samsung Series 650.

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

Thanks for linking to your post.. The picture quality you're getting from that homemade antenna is pretty good. I'll make my own before I ever buy one. But before I build my own I'll see if I can find someone with an old UHF antenna on their roof willing to get rid of it

Newegg.ca didn't have the HD 650 model so I just googled for it. They do have the HD 750 w/Remote but it's $65 and is software encoding :/ After looking through some more google results I did find a PCI-E version of the 650 for $54+shipping but that's probably as good as it will get. If after the weekend I can't find it locally for around the same price I'll probably order it on Monday. I'm kinda hoping to have something put together for the following weekend.

[weirdlookinguy]

Re: Building my first HTPC

If you're doing OTA, check out my writeup (with pictures!):

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9317

I got my PCI-E HD Wonder 650 for $30... where are you looking for it?

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I was checking out the HD Wonder 650..the cheapest price for the PCI-E version is $85 but the external USB version is only $50 so I might get the USB version and modify it to sit inside the case if it's possible. Gonna look at some hauppage cards first though.. I'm definitely interested in getting a tuner/antenna setup asap now that I know people in my area have been able to get 20+ HD OTA channels from Buffalo/Rochester/Toronto. Thanks for Wrog/Weirdguy for helping me figure this stuff out.

So far I've only pulled the trigger on that IOGEAR Keyboard w/Trackball and I'm gonna put my plans of getting a BD-ROM on hold for the moment. I tend to go to the movies more than I rent/buy discs. Hopefully after the weekend I'll have decided on exactly what I'm going to buy.

[weirdlookinguy]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I am using the Diamond HD Wonder 650 tuner card. It has a Samsung tuner and the ATI Theater chip, which interfaces with my Radeon 4850 and provides hardware mpeg2 and hardware acceleration for many things video-related. You have an ATI card too, maybe you should look into HD tuners with the ATI Theater chip so that you can get the most out of your hardware.

The card did not come with a remote but there is a more expensive version of it that does come with a remote. The card does great with OTA, but I have read in many places online that it has some major signal strength issues with QAM so I'd steer clear of this card if you plan on doing anything other than OTA.

The system, just in case you're interested:
Windows 7 Ultimate
Diamond HD Wonder 650
ATI Radeon 4850
Core 2 Duo E7500
Gigabyte EP45-UD3P
6GB DDR2
640GB WD Caviar Black
400w Delta PSU w/ 120mm fan ('tis a very quiet, cool-running PSU)

[Wrog]

Re: Building my first HTPC

@wrog The video card is fanless, so no noise there.. A lot of the cooling will depend on the configuration of the case fans and ventilation holes. I like the fact that the Apevia X-Master case has mounts for two 120mm fans.. The Silverstone case I wanted seems to only support 80mm fans :/

No kidding -- I didn't realize they made a fanless 5450, that is excellent! I originally thought I would be using the 120mm fans mounted on each side of the Apevia case, but believe it or not, the double 80mm exhaust in the rear keeps everything adequately cool.

I need to look into these IR blasters a little more too.. I would really love to be able to browse through Media Centre and play movies/music with a remote. Also, when my friends come over I obviously want to be able to brag about how simple and convenient the system is

Note that the IR blaster is only necessary if you want to control things other than Media Center (not sure if that was your intention, because MC can play TV/movies/music/photos). Honestly, our Living Room HTPC is probably one of the best purchases in the last few years, we like it that much!

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I am running Windows 7 MCE on my machine. It is not a dedicated HTPC, but I have an HD tuner in it and use to record/watch TV on the daily. Wrog's estimate for WTV format is spot on. Last night's House (1 hour show) is taking up 7 GB on my drive.

Mind if I ask what tuner you have and if it came with a remote? If it did, what else can you control with it and it is easy to use?

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

@wrog The video card is fanless, so no noise there.. A lot of the cooling will depend on the configuration of the case fans and ventilation holes. I like the fact that the Apevia X-Master case has mounts for two 120mm fans.. The Silverstone case I wanted seems to only support 80mm fans :/


7GB for an hour of TV.. wow. I didn't expect that but I get why it up so much space. I can live with only being able to store up to 25 hours of HD TV.. For me that's like 3-4 weeks worth of shows. I'd probably erase shows after I'm done watching them anyway.


I need to look into these IR blasters a little more too.. I would really love to be able to browse through Media Centre and play movies/music with a remote. Also, when my friends come over I obviously want to be able to brag about how simple and convenient the system is

[Deft]

Re: Building my first HTPC

It might also be an idea to use an aftermarket cooler, as S939 Athlons run a bit hot and the stock coolers can get noisy.

This one looks like it would be good (if it fits in the case)

I have this HSF from a PC 3 I built years ago (board died because of bad caps after 2.5 years and it's still awaiting recapping). The HS is copper and it works quite well. The fan started making noise after about 2 years so I replaced it with an 80mm Artic Cooling fan which is so much quieter. The original fan was 92mm thought (it has mounting holes for both sizes).. I'll probably swap the 80mm fan for a 92mm AC fan at some point.

Speaking of cooling and noise... The loudest fan I have to deal with is the one for the chipset. I really find those tiny little fans so irritating. I'd like to find a replacement HS for it and have a fan blowing across it. The only issue is that the chipset is placed too close to my graphics card so the HS needs to be the same width.

[weirdlookinguy]

Re: Building my first HTPC

I am running Windows 7 MCE on my machine. It is not a dedicated HTPC, but I have an HD tuner in it and use to record/watch TV on the daily. Wrog's estimate for WTV format is spot on. Last night's House (1 hour show) is taking up 7 GB on my drive.

I think it is well worth it. WTV looks fantastic. I can't tell any difference between watching a live HD OTA stream and watching it after it's been recorded as WTV. Hard drives are dirt cheap these days. I say pop two or three 500GB or bigger drives in there, set MCE to record the highest quality possible, and let er' rip!