Steam Generator - To Be or Not To Be - And 1000 Other Questions

[stj]

Like - for all of the connections that call for a connection to "J1"... Do I just get that power directly from the contactor spades?
Does this thing use a NEUTRAL wire? All I see coming into it is the 2 120v lines...

this is always fun for Americans and Canadians
your incoming mains is 2 phase,
think of it as 120-0-120
normally you wire a socket to 0 and one of the 120 sides, and you try to balance it so you use equal power from the 2 sides.

for 240v you just use both 120v lines and earth-ground.
you DO NOT use the Neutral connection.
120+120=240

[JayPoorJay]

this is always fun for Americans and Canadians
your incoming mains is 2 phase,
think of it as 120-0-120
normally you wire a socket to 0 and one of the 120 sides, and you try to balance it so you use equal power from the 2 sides.

for 240v you just use both 120v lines and earth-ground.
you DO NOT use the Neutral connection.
120+120=240

Ok and understood... Actually, the only thing that I'm not nervous about it running my two 120v wires and a ground from my breaker panel.
I am nervous about connecting to the Circuit Board. I dont want to destroy or burn the thing.

For the circuit board connections ---- for J1, 2 and 3 on the board,,, where do I connect those?

Are you willing to use one of my photos and literally paint me a picture, lol. No kidding,,, I have NO faith in myself to get it right OR hoping that I do.

Do J 1, 2, 3 on the board get wired to the the RED or BLUE spades?

[redwire]

Wiring the contactor is a little scary
I see the two spades on the one side for the coil, are tied together! (red dots in pic). This can cause boom!

Important: OP take an ohmmeter and see if you can find the 1,000 ohm reading on the contactor terminals. The (blue dots) could be the contactor input or output. The coil likely connects to one on the input or line side.

Contactor datasheet: HCC or Hartland Controls
Both suck - they don't show what the other leg of the coil connects to. It must go to L1 or L2 etc. which is done on some contactors to save a wire.

The control board relay just shorts J1 and J3 together to activate the contactor (I think the schematic has the GND dot in the wrong place, it should not be on K1-3 it should be lower on K1-6).

[JayPoorJay]

Wiring the contactor is a little scary
I see the two spades on the one side for the coil, are tied together! (red dots in pic). This can cause boom!

Important: OP take an ohmmeter and see if you can find the 1,000 ohm reading on the contactor terminals. The (blue dots) could be the contactor input or output. The coil likely connects to one on the input or line side.

Contactor datasheet: HCC or Hartland Controls
Both suck - they don't show what the other leg of the coil connects to. It must go to L1 or L2 etc. which is done on some contactors to save a wire.

The control board relay just shorts J1 and J3 together to activate the contactor (I think the schematic has the GND dot in the wrong place, it should not be on K1-3 it should be lower on K1-6).

Red, I super appreciate your input here. Careful steps and acknowledging how unclear things are.

Hornets nest and ALL that. Yes, thats how this feels.

Believe it or not I've poked my way through schematics for jaguars old and new,,, one car had been underwater (literally) and I'm driving it today. What is and ISN'T in this schematic has to be intentional...

I'm going to call Thermosol technical support today (I called them once and they were NOT helpful) to see if there is anything they can add. There has to be.

Honestly, unless someone can give me a play by play, draw me a map almost, I think I'm going to feel kinda paralyzed...

[stj]

it's really very simple, your just intimidated by 240v
if you run a 240v pair + earth from the panel to a terminal block through a couple of 3A fuses you can test individual things with it.
Honestly 240v is nothing - in europe we use it all the time - even unsafe shit like x-mass lights.
110v is worse because your using double the current.
which is why big stuff needs 240.

[stj]

adding:
the plan is simple - test all the bits seperatly - starting with the pcb because it probably powers the expensive controller.
so we NEED to know thats putting out the right voltage.
then we can test the relays on it -- they only need 12v,
then the solenoid(s) contactor etc.

if i was in your position i would be more nervous hooking a hose to the steam chamber for a pressure test incase it has a leak!

[JayPoorJay]

Ok... Call me craZy and point me out as wrong, BUT I think I may have it...

Here's the thing. I think that this wiring diagram ISNT so much about following it to wire it up, but its just saying a little something about what is connected to or is getting power from what. THIS is directly from the the instruction manual --- "Connect 240-volt SINGLE PHASE AC electrical lines to wires labeled 1 & 2 in junction box on the generator and an approved ground to the green safety grounding wire". IN THIS, can we call "wires labeled 1&2" J1 and J2?

First, a quick question. See photo YELLOW CIRCLE. Can THIS be used as the ground for the entire board and its components when bolted to the box?

Second idea, I don't think (am pretty sure) this unit comes with the electrical power-flush solenoid. I think its just a manual system - handle on top - and the instructions to run a manual "power-flush" are in the instructions/manual. The instructions for the controller for this model say nothing about an E control for power-flush at the controller either. I took the box off the tank last night and there is NO solenoid or wiring for a "powerflush solenoid" that I can see.

So, I think the power-flush solenoid in this instance can be disregarded?

From the instruction manual in RED above. Basically its just saying attach 2 120v leads and a ground to the wires in the junction box, and BOOM,,,, everything is wired! From there the diagram is just showing what is touching the 120v sources,,, J1 and J2. I think J 1&2 and everything connected to J 1 and J 2 uses the two wires (see photo) RED and BLACK/J1 & 2/red dot black dot,,, in the photo. Then, corresponding colors and J1&2 at the MAIN power feed on the contactor... Then, the white, connects to where the white dot is (the signal or control) for the contactor...? Did that make any sense, lol?

Then, anything that needs to be powered always LIVE or on the SWITCHED sides gets wired into the spades on either side of the contactor? Grounded to the BODY of the machine ie. thermostat/thermometer/level switch/power-flush solenoid (if there was one...? I'm not sure about the grounding at this point. Or anything for that matter....

ADDITIONALY - I'm hoping I am making sense here, the "thermostat/fast start" circuit LOOKS like it has a heating element in it and the circuit is completed when the thermostat CLOSES completing the circuit allowing 120v on both legs to heat the resistor/element in the tank??? 120 on both legs to heat the coil/element? Strange thing is they are doing that with like 18 or 20 gauge wire???? Anyways, If this is the case I may just disregard this connection to save energy. We have NO need to have a fast start. We will not be using this as much as that.

So, the flush solenoid is obsolete as is the fast start. Do you think the unit will run without the thermostat?

I'm also thinking that using "J1" as a switch control in what they have labeled as "HEATER CONTACTOR COIL" can and should come right off of ONE of the spades of my 120v leads and the other side should plug into "J3" coming off of the board to complete a circuit and energize/control the coil and contactor???

[redwire]

I can't figure out the contactor coil - can you look closely and find the "A1" terminal near the coil or is it only "A2"?
I will sketch something once I figure out there the two connections for the coil are. It might be that "A1" is internally connected to "L1" or "L2" terminals on it.

Main ground should be a stud somewhere in the metal enclosure. Needs to be good for a 40A fault. That PC board ground bolt is not enough, it's only for grounding the controller and its safety.

Thermosol must have a drawing showing how to connect all this stuff up, how else can they manufacture it?

[redwire]

OK I figured out most of it and did this drawing for you to look at.
The trick is is "J1" is common mains power for a few things so their schematic diagram shows it connecting to a bunch of stuff- but it's only one spade connector lol. It's a lousy drawing then they don't want to offer support. Makes sense.

The only unknown is where the contactor A1 terminal is? I can't see it in the pics or Littelfuse/Hartland Controls crap datasheet. Can you figure that one out with an ohmmeter or something.

The control board still needs the keypad/display etc. which connects at the RJ jack.

[JayPoorJay]

Red! That is perfect....

I was just speaking with the 3rd person at thermosol. The first two had zero info, the third, did good. She sent the 2nd attached picture.

In speaking with her and now THIS, I think I have everything I need to feel fairly confident in wiring the thing up.
Friday, probably Saturday morning, I will give it a shot and SEE if there will be steam...

Thank you for this. Its exactly right.

The A1 lead comes directly off of the J1 120 volt connection. One of the spare spade below the main lugs.
The contactor says its a 220v pull down rating BUT I can only hope thermosol knew what they were doing and that 110/120v will close it.
So, I guess I will make and wrap a wire around from J1 or 2 and connect it to A1 like is says in the diagram...? What do you think about that?

Also,, for those two super skinny white wires that go to the thermostat/fast start (she swears my unit/model doesnt have it) she said that she would say that IF mine does have the equipment that I should just plug each end into the 120v J1 and J2 and its a small resistive heater that preheats the water. Not sure how I feel about that, but. I don't think i need to pre heat the water for a fast start anyways.

Thank you for your help.
Lets see how it goes!

[JayPoorJay]

OK I figured out most of it and did this drawing for you to look at.
The trick is is "J1" is common mains power for a few things so their schematic diagram shows it connecting to a bunch of stuff- but it's only one spade connector lol. It's a lousy drawing then they don't want to offer support. Makes sense.

The only unknown is where the contactor A1 terminal is? I can't see it in the pics or Littelfuse/Hartland Controls crap datasheet. Can you figure that one out with an ohmmeter or something.

The control board still needs the keypad/display etc. which connects at the RJ jack.

Good Morning.

Yesterday I was feeling pretty good, progress, but as you pointed out A1 still leaves a question.
I'm confused as to why the drawing seems to show the "J1/A1" connection coming off of the board - and not from somewhere else. There is NO spade for this on the board.
Because it is labeled as "J1" I was confident with the idea that I could run a wire from one of the 120v spades under J1 into the contactor powering "A1" with that - then "J3"/"A2" to the board for the control of the contactor, as in your drawing.
But today I am not so sure. Also, its a 240v coil.

Ill post a from above pic (from the internet) of the contactor to see A1. Its there, on the opposite side of the contactor from the A2.
Also, another shot of the schematic where it seems to show J1 for the Heating Contactor Coil coming out of the board. It is a terrible drawing and it is confusing me...

[redwire]

The factory bonehead schematic is trying to say "connects to J1" but this is only one terminal... yet the contactor terminal has 4+screw so they are using that as a common point for connections. Point is L1 Line all connect to one point. The PC board cannot handle high (heater) currents either so heater J1 could not connect to it there anyway. You might be missing a short jumper wire? It's not a good schematic IMHO.

Also note- the Water Level Switch is a master cutoff of 12VDC power to the relays and the display board. So low water everything will appear dead.
Before I'd start this up, I would confirm the water level switch works and there is no ground-fault with the heating element. You could power it up with heater disconnected to see if the contactor pulls in and display operate.

I thought these steam generators plug up inside with lime and calcium, it might need an acid wash inside?

[JayPoorJay]

The factory bonehead schematic is trying to say "connects to J1" but this is only one terminal... yet the contactor terminal has 4+screw so they are using that as a common point for connections. Point is L1 Line all connect to one point. The PC board cannot handle high (heater) currents either so heater J1 could not connect to it there anyway. You might be missing a short jumper wire? It's not a good schematic IMHO.

Also note- the Water Level Switch is a master cutoff of 12VDC power to the relays and the display board. So low water everything will appear dead.
Before I'd start this up, I would confirm the water level switch works and there is no ground-fault with the heating element. You could power it up with heater disconnected to see if the contactor pulls in and display operate.

I thought these steam generators plug up inside with lime and calcium, it might need an acid wash inside?

Good morning Red.

You are right... ITs a TERRIBLE schematic. In excusably bad. Thermosol is a major brand and the idea that they provided this to the public as the wiring diagram is inexcusable in my IMHO. Politely, I HASD to let them know when speaking with them. There must be a reason they did this...?

Believe it or not I got it wired up and got it turned ON... Thing is (and there is always a thing) the element is toast. New one is 180$ if I can get my hands on one. Good thing is (as you sad) removing the coil allowed me to get my eyes on the "LEVEL" switch and to really clean the inside of the box. Lots of scale... Then, replace a gasket at the box closure and to get my eyes on the water input control float. Basically a float with a rubber stopper that seals the water stream when the water level is at the right height.

And yes, the jumper wire. The unit requires that a jumper be placed between J1 at the contactor and the terminal on either side of the contactor. Its not polar. Then J3 sends the signal from the board which controls the switching.

I REALLY appreciate you sticking with me.

I got another thread to start about a sauna heater and a TERRIBLE set of schematics and diagrams that came with IT... Cant make this stuff up.

[redwire]

I'm glad you're getting somewhere with it.
You can see how people would just give up and toss it, with the lousy Thermosol documents.
I've seen this kind of lousy schematic gets made by someone who doesn't really know the electrical/manufacturing business - the standard symbols, how you wire things etc. It might be a guy that does circuit board design and all he's interested in is the board (that's all in his head but no one else) and not the other stuff.

[sam_sam_sam]

I personally do not like wiring diagrams use the same labels for example “J1” several times and they are not supposed to be hooked the same way really are they joking around they need to use a different letter if you are going to use this type of labeling and then they should also show you how everything is connected together so there is no guessing going and so you do not accidentally hook something up wrong really this is crap

Or

If you are going to use the same labeling then it should have Power In Thermostat sensor contactor and things like this so you know where everything goes on the circuit board so you do not have to guess where it suppose to go

I am not suggesting that you can not figure it out how everything is supposed to be connected and to where but this worse than not having a wiring diagram and when you do not have a wiring diagram then you have to trace everything out with a multi meter and know how each circuit is supposed to be connected which takes a lot longer to do it this way

I am working on a machine right now and the wiring diagram is somewhat helpful but it does not show how a timer module is hooked up and all of the wires are yellow in the 120 volt control circuit some of the wires are numbered but most of them are not so you have to trace where the wires that's are not numbered so it makes troubleshooting slower than it needs to be because of it

I have to thank a teacher that I had when I was taking air conditioning and refrigeration his big thing was first let you learn how the controls are wired like the thermostat fan relays heat relays and compressor conntactors and the compressor itself
Then when he thought you were ready then he would take all the wires off the unit take away all the wiring diagrams and have you wire it back up and he would check it before you were allowed to connect to power and see if you had the wiring correct or not a great way to learn how control are wired

[sam_sam_sam]

Good morning Red.

You are right... ITs a TERRIBLE schematic. In excusably bad. Thermosol is a major brand and the idea that they provided this to the public as the wiring diagram is inexcusable in my IMHO. Politely, I HASD to let them know when speaking with them. There must be a reason they did this...?

Believe it or not I got it wired up and got it turned ON... Thing is (and there is always a thing) the element is toast. New one is 180$ if I can get my hands on one. Good thing is (as you sad) removing the coil allowed me to get my eyes on the "LEVEL" switch and to really clean the inside of the box. Lots of scale... Then, replace a gasket at the box closure and to get my eyes on the water input control float. Basically a float with a rubber stopper that seals the water stream when the water level is at the right height.

And yes, the jumper wire. The unit requires that a jumper be placed between J1 at the contactor and the terminal on either side of the contactor. Its not polar. Then J3 sends the signal from the board which controls the switching.

I REALLY appreciate you sticking with me.

I got another thread to start about a sauna heater and a TERRIBLE set of schematics and diagrams that came with IT... Cant make this stuff up.

I gad you were able to get it going but when you have a wiring diagram like this you can very easily make mistakes especially when you are not familiar with controls and devices and controllers and other devices that can be in a machine