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Old 06-02-2018, 08:16 PM   #41
Sparkey55
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

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Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Understandable, it isn't exactly straight forward, I only know about it because we ran into issues at work back in 2015 (last time a 53 week ISO year occurred) with some reports that pulled data from multiple systems (some using the ISO 8601 standard and some using other standards that always have 52 weeks) where the weeks on the reports didn't match some of the data.
Thanks, interesting though. I think Nichicon must have found a fix for the formula with them but never implemented them into production until after 2005.
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Old 06-02-2018, 10:28 PM   #42
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

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Looks like Sanyo WF caps are the new Chemicon KZG - just took them a bit longer to go bad. Like the KZGs, all of the WF ones that went bad on my stuff have gone high capacitance (high internal leakage), especially the ones that sat more in storage. So I can confirm what Wester547 said above.
So KZG are prone to failing high capacitance / high leakage current in your experience, like bad Nichicon HM, HN, HZ, and Suncon WF? In my experience, most KZG (and KZJ) just go open circuit when they fail, and the capacitance plummets dramatically, although I’ve seen a few exceptions to that rule of thumb.

Quote:
So I too doubt that those bulged WF caps were a result of a bad PSU.
Moreover, I've seen systems with completely gutless PSUs filled with bulged crap caps, and the motherboards crap caps survived and were within spec - multiple times.
Yes, me too, but I don’t doubt that when the PSU’s output filter caps go bad, it puts significantly more stress on the general filter capacitors (and VRM input filtering capacitors) on the motherboard, somewhat shortening their lifespan. What I have also noticed about VRM input caps on many boards with poorly designed VRM sections is that they are pigeonholed right next to hot MOSFETs (the VRM output caps are located away from the FETs, closer to the CPU), which doesn’t help at all.

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Originally Posted by Sparkey55 View Post
I have found two socket 939 motherboards with Nichicon HM caps with a date code of year 2004 week 53. Yes. I said week 53, not a typo. Still working just fine on a Gigabyte motherboard. Must be a transitional production batch before the standard run of 2005 came out. Very strange indeed.
Interesting. Some time ago, I happened across this image on the internet, which was posted ten years ago now, and it shows two bad 3300µF 6.3V Nichicon HM with the exact datecodes that yours have (H0453? Week 53, 2004, made in Ohno, Japan), along with a bulged and leaking 1000µF 16V KZJ (with a datecode of February 2nd, 2005). Alongside them was obviously a Rubycon MBZ which appeared fine.

The only conclusion I can come to is that all electrolytics (according to the documents provided by the manufacturers), insofar as their useful life, are rated with 60% confidence (or -/+ 40% confidence). So even if you calculate the formula for useful life (based on the endurance life spec), it may not provide an accurate idea of how long the cap will actually last in the real world (although good caps will last longer than their rated lifespan).

Last edited by Wester547; 06-02-2018 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 06-02-2018, 10:54 PM   #43
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

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Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
So KZG are prone to failing high capacitance / high leakage current in your experience, like bad Nichicon HM, HN, HZ, and Suncon WF? In my experience, most KZG (and KZJ) just go open circuit when they fail, and the capacitance plummets dramatically, although I’ve seen a few exceptions to that rule of thumb.

Yes, me too, but I don’t doubt that when the PSU’s output filter caps go bad, it puts significantly more stress on the general filter capacitors (and VRM input filtering capacitors) on the motherboard, somewhat shortening their lifespan. What I have also noticed about VRM input caps on many boards with poorly designed VRM sections is that they are pigeonholed right next to hot MOSFETs (the VRM output caps are located away from the FETs, closer to the CPU), which doesn’t help at all.

Interesting. Some time ago, I happened across this image on the internet, which was posted ten years ago now, and it shows two bad 3300µF 6.3V Nichicon HM with the exact datecodes that yours have (H0453? Week 53, 2004, made in Ohno, Japan), along with a bulged and leaking 1000µF 16V KZJ (with a datecode of February 2nd, 2005). Alongside them was obviously a Rubycon MBZ which appeared fine.

The only conclusion I can come to is that all electrolytics (according to the documents provided by the manufacturers), insofar as their useful life, are rated with 60% confidence (or -/+ 40% confidence). So even if you calculate the formula for useful life (based on the endurance life spec), it may not provide an accurate idea of how long the cap will actually last in the real world (although good caps will last longer than their rated lifespan).
Well then maybe the issue was not fixed with the H0453 HM's. The boards I had were hardly used though. The quality of the PSU and plenty of cooling goes a long way to extend their life it seems.
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Old 06-04-2018, 07:56 PM   #44
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
So KZG are prone to failing high capacitance / high leakage current in your experience, like bad Nichicon HM, HN, HZ, and Suncon WF? In my experience, most KZG (and KZJ) just go open circuit when they fail, and the capacitance plummets dramatically, although I’ve seen a few exceptions to that rule of thumb.
Most of the 6.3V, 3300 uF Chemicon KZG caps I pulled that were showing okay at some point now are starting to show very high capacitance (4000+ uF), and a few even bulged in storage - same way my 6.3V, 2200 uF HZ did.

But I can't say that applies for the smaller KZG caps, like the notoriously bad 6.3V, 820 uF. I think those loose capacitance and go O/C or high ESR more often, like you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
What I have also noticed about VRM input caps on many boards with poorly designed VRM sections is that they are pigeonholed right next to hot MOSFETs (the VRM output caps are located away from the FETs, closer to the CPU), which doesn’t help at all.
The MOSFETs aren't always the hottest parts. Sometimes, it's the coils/inductor that run much hotter than the FETs. I find that on newer boards, it's these square "enclosed" inductors that run very hot, whereas the FETs may or may not run hot. On older boards, especially with large toroidal inductors, it's the other way around: FETs are usually hot (and on that note, usually the high-side FETs too, it seems, as they like to make the high-side filter caps toasty) and the inductors just warm.

Last edited by momaka; 06-04-2018 at 07:58 PM..
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Old 06-04-2018, 08:15 PM   #45
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

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Originally Posted by momaka View Post
Most of the 6.3V, 3300 uF Chemicon KZG caps I pulled that were showing okay at some point now are starting to show very high capacitance (4000+ uF), and a few even bulged in storage - same way my 6.3V, 2200 uF HZ did.
That’s a slight cause for concern, but nowhere near as drastic a capacitance increase as the bad datecode Nichicon HM and HN (and TK ATWY and ATWB, in my experience - Samyoung NXC too). Those KZG may see a 30-40% increase in capacitance over time, but I’ve seen the other aforementioned series skyrocket in terms of capacitance (anywhere from 2x-6x the nominal capacitance, and that’s with no bulging or leaking).

Quote:
The MOSFETs aren't always the hottest parts. Sometimes, it's the coils/inductor that run much hotter than the FETs. I find that on newer boards, it's these square "enclosed" inductors that run very hot, whereas the FETs may or may not run hot. On older boards, especially with large toroidal inductors, it's the other way around: FETs are usually hot (and on that note, usually the high-side FETs too, it seems, as they like to make the high-side filter caps toasty) and the inductors just warm.
Yeah, if you ask me, the “square box”, “enclosed” inductor design is fairly dumb and results in the coils overheating. Newer boards have polymers exclusively in the VRM input/output area, so it may not be as big of a deal as it would be with liquid electrolytics.

I was referencing older boards when I meant sinkless, hot high side VRM FETs. Those will bake any adjacent electrolytics dry. What’s also concerning is that many boards tend to use freestanding FETs, which is even worse for heat dissipation.
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:35 AM   #46
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

I just had a ECS AM2 motherboard with input kzg's that showed no signs of going bad, but all the output caps (Sanyo WF's) were bloated. The computer would boot, and win7 started up, and in the middle, it would power off, with the power button still lit up but fans and system down. The KGZ's probably dried out and killed most of the sanyos

I replaced the bad WF's with used MCZ's and it booted fine. Just enough to change some windows devices so I could boot it off another motherboard that was a much higher quality (but different chipset, AMD AM3 Phenom II X4 955, where the ECS was nvidia, Athlon X2 5600+). Worked Great, no bluescreens. Reactivation went well (did have the sticker on the case.)

the old one also had a 160GB PATA, I cloned it to a 250SATA and enabled AHCI. Worked even better after that.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:08 AM   #47
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Default Re: BSOD and Gigabyte Capacitors

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Originally Posted by Uranium-235 View Post
I just had a ECS AM2 motherboard with input kzg's that showed no signs of going bad, but all the output caps (Sanyo WF's) were bloated. The computer would boot, and win7 started up, and in the middle, it would power off, with the power button still lit up but fans and system down. The KGZ's probably dried out and killed most of the sanyos
Nah, I doubt the KZG's killed the Sanyo WF caps. 16V 1500 uF and 1800 uF KZGs don't fail that much, even the older ones. It's the 6.3V ones to be aware of.

Those Sanyo WF failed because they are not so great, as stated earlier.

That said, was the original mobo an ECS MCP61PM-AM or MCP61SM-GM by any chance?? If yes, those also have lots of problems with the nVidia 6100/6150 chipset going bad over time (and really, any mobo with that chipset will have problems, unless it has a really nice big heatsink on it). The only way to stop or slow down that is to install a fan on the existing chipset heatsink or upgrade to a much bigger one (which can be a problem if you want to use the PCI and PCI-E slots, as that can block them).

In any case, don't chuck those boards, even if you see a dead one. A reflow of the chipset can get them going again. It was a widely-used board back in the day, so there is still a bit of demand for it from folks who are trying to get older PCs going again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uranium-235 View Post
I replaced the bad WF's with used MCZ's and it booted fine. Just enough to change some windows devices so I could boot it off another motherboard that was a much higher quality (but different chipset, AMD AM3 Phenom II X4 955, where the ECS was nvidia, Athlon X2 5600+). Worked Great, no bluescreens. Reactivation went well (did have the sticker on the case.)
If it's an AMD 770, 780, or 790 chipset, those tend to fail too same way as the nVidia's, but nowhere near as often. Really, it's only older Intel chipsets that I trust will work fine, even at elevated temperatures. ATI... maybe. And nVidia - I'm glad to see they don't make chipsets anymore. While they did offer good features, they were always terrible in terms of reliability (save for the ancient nForce 2 and possibly nForce 3. nForce 4 appears to be so-so, and anything afterwards is garbage.)
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