The How To Build A Server Thread

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  • mariushm
    Badcaps Legend
    • May 2011
    • 3799

    #1

    The How To Build A Server Thread

    In the past, it may have been a big difference between server motherboards and regular desktop systems. Server grade hardware was more reliable, it came with expensive stuff integrated such as SCSI controllers, had better heatsinks because the manufacturer couldn't rely on the datacenter to keep the rack temperature low...

    Nowadays, even the gaming or regular cheap boards come with polymer caps, the have good enough heatsinks because most people overclock their systems, the boards have good SATA 6 gbps controllers integrated and video... basically the only benefit server motherboards have nowadays is support for ECC RAM and maybe SAS. Even ECC RAM is not that special, as some AMD chipsets support it on regular motherboards.


    If you were to build the server now from scratch, it would not be worth it.
    1. You'd have to get a computer case that supports EATX or whatever format the motherboard has.
    2. Processors would be much more expensive than the 140$ you paid for the 2 cpus now.
    3. You'd have to buy cpu coolers as they don't normally come with the processors.
    4. You'd need a special power supply that would have TWO x 8 pin cpu cables - so that's a 650+ w power supply.

    In the end, you'd have an expensive system that usually consumes more than 1A of power, which is the usual limit for a 1-2U server in a datacenter.

    For the same price you'd pay if all parts were new, you'd probably be able to make two systems with the AMD FX8150 for example, and keep the second as spare machine or have the second as a failover.

    Even with one system, you'd have 90% of the performance and about 95% of the reliability of your normal system, yet with about 60% of the power consumption, which would normally save you money in the datacenter if you were to colocate it.

    There are hosting companies that do work with this kind of systems - Hetzner in Germany for example uses thousands of such systems and they found them just as reliable as Supermicro and Dell servers... see http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/pro...oduktmatrix-ex
    ... and they're using these boards for various offerings:

    All EQ and EX models (MSI X58 Pro-E, Asus P8H67-M Pro, Asus P8BWS)

    DS Servers with the following motherboards:

    MSI K9AG Neo2 (MS-7368)
    MSI K8T Neo2 - F (MS-7032)
    MSI K8MM3-V (MS-7181)
    MSI KA780G (MS-7551)
    MSI K9NBPM2-FID (MS-7252)

    And let's be honest here... even if the motherboard would die in 3 years, it's a 60-100$ part, and the server is hosting a forum and maybe some other things. You won't lose millions if the forum will be down for the time you can go to a retail store to buy a motherboard and replace or order one overnight from Newegg. But you'll definitely have a harder time fixing this server if the Supermicro board dies.

    I didn't criticize that you do this build, because i realize having the motherboard free changes things. You're also lucky that you found those processors for a bargain... I even agree it's okay to spend some money and be at a loss, just because you see this as a project and a fun/interesting thing to do.
  • Topcat
    The Boss Stooge
    • Oct 2003
    • 16951
    • United States

    #2
    Re: My Latest 8-core Project

    Originally posted by mariushm
    And let's be honest here... even if the motherboard would die in 3 years, it's a 60-100$ part, and the server is hosting a forum and maybe some other things. You won't lose millions if the forum will be down for the time you can go to a retail store to buy a motherboard and replace or order one overnight from Newegg. But you'll definitely have a harder time fixing this server if the Supermicro board dies.
    I'm an owner in the datacenter I have my servers in....so thats not an issue anyway. I dont put server application/loads on gaming type systems, that is always a disaster....we've done a few colo's like that...they never end well. I am 600 miles away from my datacenter....so I'm not gambling that some gaming board is going to remain stable/stay working. I don't cheap out on server hardware, there's just too much riding on it. It's a LOT easier to migrate the data from a functioning old server to a freshly built new server (can do it all online).....but disaster recovery on some crap gaming type board that failed?! I'll pass. Would I lose money if the forum goes down, no.....but when the store goes down with it, my cash flow is completely stopped. That sir, is not an option....and why my servers are never built on low-end gamer boards....I wouldn't even build a server from a 'high-end' gaming board, as even that wouldn't equal the stability and reliability of a true server board.

    If that Supermicro dies before its 15th birthday, I'd be amazed. I've NEVER taken a supermicro serverboard out of service because it was malfunctioning....I've always replaced them just because they're getting old and slow....and this one is a long way from that.

    Originally posted by mariushm
    I didn't criticize that you do this build, because i realize having the motherboard free changes things. You're also lucky that you found those processors for a bargain... I even agree it's okay to spend some money and be at a loss, just because you see this as a project and a fun/interesting thing to do.
    Be at a loss? How ya figure? I could sell the thing for much more than I have in it.... You completely lost me now.... Hell, even on Ebay, this system would bring atleast a grand.....I won't have half that in it.... I actually have a mission for this....but you're completely confusing me.... Who buys/builds IT grade computers for use and plans on making money on the tail end?! When I take a server out of service, I usually GIVE them away....because they've made me a fortune while they were in service, which is what they're supposed to do... The server that runs this site has made me an untold fortune in revenue, but the hardware is essentially worthless today....the one I'm building will do the same.... Enterprise systems don't value out the way a home/gaming system does....so your comparisons just aren't valid, sorry.
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    • ratdude747
      Black Sheep
      • Nov 2008
      • 17136
      • USA

      #3
      Re: My Latest 8-core Project

      Originally posted by Topcat
      When I take a server out of service, I usually GIVE them away....because they've made me a fortune while they were in service, which is what they're supposed to do... The server that runs this site has made me an untold fortune in revenue, but the hardware is essentially worthless today....the one I'm building will do the same.... Enterprise systems don't value out the way a home/gaming system does....so your comparisons just aren't valid, sorry.
      I can confirm that with the Mobo in my main rig (A supermicro x5dal-TG2, used to be the BCN server at one point). Thanks Topcat!
      sigpic

      (Insert witty quote here)

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      • mariushm
        Badcaps Legend
        • May 2011
        • 3799

        #4
        Re: My Latest 8-core Project

        I've built computers with server grade components, if you want I can show you the manuals and various crap i got with a 2 socket Tyan motherboard I bought.

        The part you don't understand is because you're looking at everything from the perspective of someone that is owner at a datacenter, that already has a server or more there and doesn't have to care about electricity charges, about renting a single unit or a half rack or a full rack, that doesn't factor in downtime, that won't pay extra to have the server hosted there because you're just replacing the old one or you're owner so you don't care...

        Look at it from the perspective of a regular person that wants to make a system and have it colocated somewhere and do the math

        - how much will the parts for this system you make now would cost the person if he were to buy them from the store now?
        - how much will he pay the datacenter for the rack space
        - how much will he pay the datacenter for the 2A of electricity
        - what happens if the server dies, what backup plans do you have

        A regular user can probably make this system for... let's say $1500 ($300 case and psu + $400 mb + $400 cpus (2) + $ 100 cpu fans + $200 ram + $100 hdd) and gets a 1U system using 1.5-2A of power.

        He goes to a datacenter that charges his $25 for 1U but charges $50 a month for 1A of power, so he pays $125 a month just to colocate the server there.
        At the end of the year, he's out of $3000 (125$ x 12 + $1500).

        What if the server has a failure for some reason? Tough, he just colocates, he doesn't have spare parts, the datacenter is 600 miles away.

        Now what if he was to build a system from regular computer parts?

        A 2-3U rackable case is 100$, the psu is as low as 60$ but let's say $100 (brand name quality 500w one), mb is 100$, cpu is $250, ram is $100, hdd is $100 ... the total cost is $750.
        The system has 90% of the previous server grade hardware yet user only pays 50$ for 2U and 50$ for 1A of power so he pays 100$ a month (for the 2u case).

        At the end of the year, he's out of 1950$ (750$ + 12x100)

        With the savings, he can very easily build an identical system with the first one and pay the datacenter just 50$ extra a month to keep the second server in the rack, without any power.

        If there's any failure, the user can just pay the 100$ for one hour of remote hands and tell the engineer to move the hard drives and the power cable over and when he has time, he can go to the datacenter to fix or replace the broken server.

        It's not just the motherboard you're relying on, you're also relying on memory modules not going bad all of the sudden, you're also relying on the hard drive to keep spinning and not die suddenly after a few months...

        To me, the second case looks much better, if I'm on a limited budget or I'm just starting my business and I'm not sure about how much income the business is gonna bring me. I'd be reluctant to rely on a single server for my business and since the datacenter is so far away, especially since you say it made you an untold fortune in revenue (though if this old one you have now did that, I would have thought you'd be eager to replace it with a better one sooner)
        Not to mention that you wouldn't have just one server or all servers in one location if you make so much money out of this and it's important to be online.

        When I said you're at a loss, I was thinking of how much money you throw to build this compared to how much money you'd pay usually just to lease a supermicro or a dell server directly from the manufacturers . Again, it's one point of failure while by leasing the server you'd get a year or so on site replacements and all that - it can be a much better investment of your money.
        Last edited by mariushm; 04-10-2012, 08:54 PM.

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        • Topcat
          The Boss Stooge
          • Oct 2003
          • 16951
          • United States

          #5
          Re: My Latest 8-core Project

          ^
          I still disagree with that. I've had an occasional PSU or HDD failure....that's just the nature of the beast.... There are people on hand capable of chaning out a hot-swap HDD tray or PSU module. In 14 years, I've never had an in-service (live server) motherboard failure or memory failure (outside of my VP6's with bad caps in the dark ages, thankfully those were local). I had a backup system crap out on me once, was an Intel SAI2 motherboard (dual socket 603 Xeon) that just went tits up one day after 8 years of running 24/7... Swapped out with a spare on the shelf, server was live again in 20 minutes. I did a quick bench check of the board afterward, it wouldn't POST anymore...I stripped it and tossed it in the trash....it wasn't worth another minute's worth of my time.

          I dont think you realize what kind of revenue these servers generate. $3000 bucks is just a petty tax writeoff in retrospect. For example, the X5DAL-TG2 that I gave to Ratdude....let me tell you the story behind those. I had 3 of them. 2 fully assembled and live in servers, the 3rd was new in the box as a hotspare....just incase. As its time to begin phasing them out, I gave one to Ratdude, the hotspare I tossed into a case and gave it to my stepdaughter, and the last one is actually still in service....you're posting to it now. All those boards were bought back in 03~04, when they were new.... I bargain hunt yes (I wait a year or so from their launch for prices to drop, etc)....but all were of top-end parts, I had probably 4000 in them all, give or take a few hundred. In their SEVEN years of FLAWLESS service, they have generated probably close to 6-figures in revenue....probably more with all the side stuff. See where I'm going with this? At the end of the day, the hardware is worthless, and the cost of buying it was very trivial. I give them away to keep them from either sitting on the junk shelf or becoming landfill. Ratdude was able to make good use of it, and I was happy to see that become of it. Quality aint cheap my friend... yes, I could have built cheaper machines.....but I can guarantee with a fair degree of confidence that they would not have given the same top-grade service that the intended hardware has given.

          I have been on your side of the aisle.....I've had to build and maintain servers on a very tight budget before....but that did not mean I skimped on parts. I would simply work it so I was able to buy the high-end hardware....thinking back, there are times I think of and wonder how I ever pulled it off....I was THAT broke!! ..but I'm just one of those that won't compromise quality to save a couple hundred bucks....it will get you in the end....and in the case of this particular machine, it wouldn't be any cheaper to build the cheaper grade system....and it certainly won't perform better...

          I'm not saying your method is wrong....I just see things differently and built my servers for the long-haul.... If your way works for you, by all means!!! ...and I think that's great that you found a method that you're happy with.
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          • ratdude747
            Black Sheep
            • Nov 2008
            • 17136
            • USA

            #6
            Re: My Latest 8-core Project

            I will add that the board that became mind has also been flawless (other than massive BIOS slowdowns when legacy USB is enabled)... It's quality stuff.

            On the topic of durable server hardware, once I get the correct cooler, I will be re-firing an ancient AMI dual PIII server board... its old, but other than the fried out LAN, it should all work.
            sigpic

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            • shovenose
              Send Doge Memes
              • Aug 2010
              • 6575
              • USA

              #7
              Re: My Latest 8-core Project

              My $0.02:
              Quality servers are an investment. A good one.
              Junky "servers" are a big pain in a @$$...

              That said, I don't need 100% uptime for a Minecraft server or whatever else I choose to stick in my closet. I only have one "server" that needs to be up 100% of the time, and that's a gutted HP case with a re-capped ancient 250W SPI/FSP power supply that I probably recapped the bulged Cheapo Teapo with a Fuhjyuu... running an old 40GB seagate IDE hard drive I think came from the "bad sector" pile at work... LOL! Total price? Less than $50... Are you wondering what that server does? it runs my entire network, firewall, router, dhcp server, port forwarder, ad blocker, content filter, etc... if that thing goes down I'm screwed. But it's better than spending thousands of dollars on premium server equipment to run a silly little home network...

              However, I wouldn't run my business on that thing. If I had something like BCN it would be spread across 4 of these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16859102487 in different datacenters across the US... why? Because in the end of the day, uptime and reliability and speed DO matter.

              THE SHORT VERSION: personally I'm glad to hear Topcat is putting server-grade hardware to good use rather than using entry-level ECS motherboards and Deer power supplies in Badcaps.net servers!
              Last edited by shovenose; 04-10-2012, 11:36 PM.

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