A good choice??

[shadow]

Re: A good choice??

Unfortunate that you do not work at a computer store any more. Having said this, what is your budget? Do you need a monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers etc? Is it a requirement for it to be a brand name PC? I went onto the Dell website and checked out that PC, it is not that great for gaming. You could get a much much better PC if you built your own or if you do not need the monitor, keyboard, mouse etc.

* Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 - I guess it is not so bad, I would probably try to get a E6320 or E6420 instead, however it will cost more.

* 2GB(2x1GB) DDR2 SDRAM - Nice and good

* 250GB SATA 3.0Gb/s with NCQ - 250gig is a fair amount of space and it is very cheap at the moment

* 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 7300LE TurboCache - This is a very low end graphics card, and you should run away from anything NVIDIA which has TurboCache in it . TurboCache is a technology that allows the video card to grab some of your system memory and use that as video memory. Many TurboCache cards have 64mb on board and take the rest up to 256mb from your system memory.

* Dual Layer DVD Burner - Standard

* 20" Dell Entry Wide Aspect Flat Panel - Nice to get a nice big LCD with it

* Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium - Nice to have too, if you are going to use it

* Keyboard and Mouse - Fairly standard

Overall I guess it is not that bad of a price to get a whole PC with a 20" Widescreen monitor, Windows, keyboard and mouse included. However if I was buying a gaming PC now, I would probably try to get one similar to the one you originally wanted. Maybe downgrade some things to keep the price down a bit. However you original plan did not include a monitor, keyboard and mouse. If these components are needed, the price will go up a fair amount!

I would try to get (if possible):

* Intel Core 2 Duo E6320 or E6420

* Intel based motherboard, P965 chipset or maybe the new Intel P35 chipset, they both look cool and great - Possibly one of the Asus P5B model motherboards or the Asus P5K motherboards (maybe not the deluxe version since they cost alot more)

* 250gig hard drive should be enough, maybe get a 320gig model if price permits since it costs not much more

* DVD Burner (maybe get a second one or get an extra DVD Reader if price permits)

* 2gig Kingston value RAM (2x 1gig sticks)

* NVIDIA graphics cards seem to have moved onto the 8xxx series, I do not know much about them at all, however a middle ground 256mb 8600GT sounds good. I am unsure about ATI cards either at the moment.

That should be around $1000, however a case and power supply still needs to be picked. A monitor, keyboard, mouse and any small extras still need to be picked as well if needed. With everything included, I believe it should come out to be around the same price as the Dell PC (which is $1600 on their website at the moment), and it is a hell of a lot better for gaming than the one they are selling at the moment.

Good luck!

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

Shadow, you have a point about that Dell system.... I don't think the 7300LE card will work very well with games.

Well right now, My budget is about < $800 since thats all I got for now.

So my choice was only to downgrade all the parts.... so my list is as follows.

* Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 - 1.6GHZ?? I think??

* Intel BOXDP965LTCK motherboard.... Intel boards are reliable, but this one doesn't have RAID and cant overclock but i'll live well with that.

* Kingston 1GB DDR2 667MHz RAM

* 1x 320GB Seagate SATAII HDD.

* Gigabyte nvidia 7300GT 256MB PCIe Graphics card.

* Coolermaster Centurion 5 ATX case with 430W PSU.... I heard that these cases were great for gamers because of the mesh coverings which provide good cooling.

I will have to reuse my old floppy drive, TV tuner, Wireless PCI card and also my Pioneer DVD burner, so I can save money in that category.

So altogether it should cost me about $780 maximum. Hopefully an Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 and a 7300GT PCIe card can play games and also run Windows Vista Ultimate.


Thanks.

[shadow]

Re: A good choice??

Yer, I checked and it should cost somewhere around the $700 mark.

Unfortunately I do not think that the 7300gt is much of a gaming card at all (unless it can be overclocked significantly and/or unlock pipelines or something). I would really be looking at a 7600gt at least for gaming, and even that is fairly slow (roughly the same speed as the best nvidia 6xxx series cards). Having said this, it will run Vista, however I do not think it is much for gaming. I checked the net and the 7600gt costs roughly $140. However the much newer (based on much newer technology) 8600gt is around $160. It would be wise to purchase a native DirectX 10 card for use with Vista. I do not know anything about how good the 8600gt is for gaming however it should be at least on par with the 7600gt and it has native support for DirectX 10.

Having said this, the 7300gt costs around $85, that means that to get a decent performer for games, u need to spend around 2x as much for a graphics card at the moment and that may throw you out of budget. It is probably better to wait and save up some more cash before you buy a PC (and have it do exactly what you want well, which is gaming from what I gather) rather than buying a PC with one critical part significantly hampered (I am referring to the graphics card that is not suited to gaming).

What PC do you have at the moment?

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

Yer, I checked and it should cost somewhere around the $700 mark.

I had another check of the prices and I requoted everything and it only costs me around $650.

Unfortunately I do not think that the 7300gt is much of a gaming card at all (unless it can be overclocked significantly and/or unlock pipelines or something). I would really be looking at a 7600gt at least for gaming, and even that is fairly slow (roughly the same speed as the best nvidia 6xxx series cards). Having said this, it will run Vista, however I do not think it is much for gaming. I checked the net and the 7600gt costs roughly $140. However the much newer (based on much newer technology) 8600gt is around $160. It would be wise to purchase a native DirectX 10 card for use with Vista. I do not know anything about how good the 8600gt is for gaming however it should be at least on par with the 7600gt and it has native support for DirectX 10.

Well I was only going to buy a PC that could play Half life 2, CS and Battlefield 2 at high resolution of 1280x1024 32bit and also with everything on high setiings. Right now I am still using an X300SE from 2005 (I think) and it doesn't run very well with high resolution gaming.

Having said this, the 7300gt costs around $85, that means that to get a decent performer for games, u need to spend around 2x as much for a graphics card at the moment and that may throw you out of budget. It is probably better to wait and save up some more cash before you buy a PC (and have it do exactly what you want well, which is gaming from what I gather) rather than buying a PC with one critical part significantly hampered (I am referring to the graphics card that is not suited to gaming).

The 7300GT at the shop i'm looking at is $120. I probably have to start shopping around for more savings.

What PC do you have at the moment?

I currently use a Pentium 4 system for gaming.... it's OK for older games, but with newer games I can forget about it.

This is what I have now....

* Intel Pentium 4 3Ghz 530J series CPU

* Intel DP965LTCK motherboard. This board supports core 2 duo and core 2 quad.... I've been thinking about this very closely but.... will removing the CPU and putting an new one damage the socket?? I heard off many people that after 2 CPU insertions, the socket is finished.
If I can still upgrade the CPU, I might as well just buy a Core 2 Duo E4300 CPU for $180 and save money instead of having to buy a new motherboard.

* 1GB G-Skill DDR2 667MHz Gaming edition RAM. 2x 512MB, Dual channel configuration. I can re-use this for a new system right?? Or do I have to buy the newer DDRII-800 modules??

* ATi Radeon X300SE 128MB PCIe

* Thermaltake Mambo ATX case with 430W Thermaltake Toughpower PSU. I am actually planning to re-use this case so that I can save a further $100.

* Pioneer DVR-109 DVDRW.... I'm reusing this one....

* 200GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA HDD.... is this one still suitable for gaming?? I heard that gaming HDD's have to be SATAII and also support NCQ??



Thanks.

[tazwegion]

Re: A good choice??

Intel DP965LTCK motherboard. This board supports core 2 duo and core 2 quad.... I've been thinking about this very closely but.... will removing the CPU and putting an new one damage the socket?? I heard off many people that after 2 CPU insertions, the socket is finished.

I'm not overly familiar with Intel platforms of that generation, however it sounds rather dubious especially after looking at pictures of the motherboard's ZIF socket (with release lever)

Go with the C2D processor, sell off what you can & scrounge up cash for a nice graphics card, additionally according to X-bit labs the DDR2-533 upwards can be used with the C2D, obviously faster RAM can be run at tighter timing settings

The previous section may give you an impression that Core 2 Duo systems do not in fact need fast memory. Using higher-frequency memory modules makes the system costlier, yet doesn't lead to any significant performance increases. This is true, in part: memory faster than DDR2-533 can only provide a maximum of 5% performance growth in a majority of widespread applications.

Using staticice.com.au, I found PCI-E 7300GT's for $80.00 AUD, 7600GS's for $100.00 AUD & 7600GT's for $125.00 AUD

Hope that helps somewhat

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

I have to leave the idea of a gaming PC out for a short while since I actually need a new Linux PC.... At the same time i'm also up for a challenge.

I'm doing an upgrade kit type of thing because I already have an ATX case, PSU and optical drives.
I gave up on my Jetway V266B motherboard so I decided to just upgrade the whole thing.
I am going to go AMD this time.... I don't know how good they are, but it is worth a try. This time i'm using an Asus motherboard. There are also some MSI choices, but I think i'll skip.

My budget is also very low of about < $250. Not that I don't have the money, but I'm up for a challenge with a few friends in building the ultimate cheapest upgrade of a Linux PC....


My choice is as follows:

*AMD Sempron 3000+ AM2 - $37AUD

*Asus M2N8-VMX or Asus M2N. I have no idea which is better. The Asus M2N-VMX has onboard VGA, but only 2 SATA ports it is also an mATX board whereas the M2N is an ATX board with 4 SATA ports, but no onboard VGA.

M2N8-VMX = $65AUD
M2N=$89AUD

*1GB Kingston ValueRAM (2x 512MB) DDRII 667MHz. These modules are $30 each.

If I go with the Asus M2N8-VMX motherboard, it will cost me around $160 in total, but with the M2N it's going to cost me $250 because it needs an additional graphics card. I have an 40GB IDE HDD, I have no idea if I can convert it to SATA since these motherboards only support SATA HDDs.

Optional extras.

*Seagate Barracuda 320GB SATAII HDD - $99AUD
*nVidia 7100GS PCIe 128MB graphics card. - $41AUD
*Cooler Master Centurion 5 series ATX case with PSU - $109AUD


Only concern I have is the PSU. I currently have a Deer PSU. Would it be safe to just use that??

or

Would it be better off in investing about $50AUD on a Thermaltake Toughpower 430W PSU?? Even though it's for a little challenge, I need it to actually last for a few years.


Thanks.

[tazwegion]

Re: A good choice??

Hmmmm... as far as the PSU selection, I think you already know the answer to that one... Deer/Generic Vs. Tt Toughpower

FYI both of your selections do actually support IDE interface devices (check pictures below), I couldn't imagine IDE not being supported on a motherboard in this current IT state of evolution



So the cash you save off reusing your old HDD you could put towards either a decent PSU or better GFX card

BTW that heatpipe chipset cooler looks (M2N-E) pretty trick!

[shadow]

Re: A good choice??

Thing is that there is only one IDE connector. This will no doubt be tied up with one or two optical drives.

If you want the ultimate cheapie, and you already have an IDE hard disk, then you can make the hard drive master and the optical drive slave. However personally I would invest in a SATA hard drive.

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

Hmmmm... as far as the PSU selection, I think you already know the answer to that one... Deer/Generic Vs. Tt Toughpower

FYI both of your selections do actually support IDE interface devices (check pictures below), I couldn't imagine IDE not being supported on a motherboard in this current IT state of evolution



So the cash you save off reusing your old HDD you could put towards either a decent PSU or better GFX card

BTW that heatpipe chipset cooler looks (M2N-E) pretty trick!

Funny enough, the price of a thermaltake PSU is the same as a Deer PSU at some places. Quality wise, probably the Thermaltake will last longer. I am definitely investing in a new PSU because I have some fear that my house will burn down if I use a Deer PSU.

My old HDD has to go anyway. I need something larger in size to do a dual boot environment. e.g. Fedora Core & Windows XP.

All my parts are coming from MSY technology after some research on the internet.
www.msy.com.au

Does anyone know how fast AMD Sempron CPUs are compared to a P4 or Celeron D????
I saw that an AMD Athlon 64 3200+ is only an extra $20 or so, but i'm not sure if it is worth it....

Thanks.

[shadow]

Re: A good choice??

Hmm...well the AMD Sempron is AMD's competitor for the Intel Celeron D. I am not sure about the performance difference between the two, however they should be very similar.

From benchmarks that I have read in the past, I believe that the AMD Athlon 64 beats a Pentium 4 of the same rated speed. I am not sure how much better since I do not remember. I also believe that the AMD Athlon 64 X2 beats the Intel Pentium D. However these are the dual core CPU's that would cost more.

[tazwegion]

Re: A good choice??

My old HDD has to go anyway. I need something larger in size to do a dual boot environment. e.g. Fedora Core & Windows XP.

Have you considered 2 physical drives rather than one large partitioned HDD? I find this preferable as I can remove either drive and still have a fully functioning PC

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

Well, 2 physical drives are going to cost me more money. My biggest confusion for this moment is the Nvidia MCP405 chipset. I do not know how good it is in terms of speed and reliability or should I go with the Asus M2N that has the Nvidia MCP430 chipset.... Has anyone used any of these chipsets?? I have no clue which one is better. I think that the MCP405 supports only 2 SATA ports.
Another one of my choices was the Asus M2V with the VIA K8T890 chipset I think??
I am also wondering if it would be a good investment in buying a cheap PCIe graphics card instead of using the onboard video.

Thanks.

[tazwegion]

Re: A good choice??

What kind of cheap PCI-E card were you thinking of? a preloved nVidia 6xxx or ATI X800 series card? or something brand new?

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

I was thinking of the ATi Radeon X300SE 128MB (I use that now) or the nvidia 7100GS. They are the cheapest cards available at the store ranging from $37 - $45AUD brand new.

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

I found something thats probably bad about the Asus M2N8-VMX motherboard.
The PCIe expansion slot is only an X8 compared to the normal x16 slot that most motherboards use.
Will an X8 slot make the performance of a graphics card different??

Thanks.

[shadow]

Re: A good choice??

Yes it will, well I guess it depends on the graphics card. For a fairly low end graphics card, the difference in performance will be small at best. However if you upgrade the graphics card, or if you use something a bit more beefy, then the performance difference will grow. A PCI-e 8x slot has half the bandwidth of a PCI-e 16x.

This website has a rather large in depth overview on PCI-Express if you are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

If PCIe 8X has half the bandwidth of a PCIe 16X slot.... that probably means that it is the same speed as AGP 8X?

So basically, it's just like an AGP slot speed wise.... But physically and electrically it is a PCIe slot?. Well.... that really explains what kind of motherboard you can get for $60AUD.... not bad but still good value though.

At this same time last year in 2006, the cheapest motherboard available around here was the Asus P4S800-MX. I personally bought one for a system build. It cost $80AUD at the time and still works after 1 year or so. Performance was OK, not too bad.


Thanks.

[shadow]

Re: A good choice??

I just checked on a wikipedia page the theoretical bandwidth of AGP4x, AGP8x, PCI-e 8x and PCI-e 16x.

AGP4x: 8.53333 Gbit/s
AGP8x: 17.066 Gbit/s
PCI-e 8x: 20 Gbit/s
PCI-e 16x: 40 Gbit/s

From these figures, PCI-e 8x has a slightly faster bus than AGP8x. However I would say that PCI-e 8x and AGP8x would be just about equal in terms of actual performance.

The link to the wikipedia page is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bandwidths

[stevo1210]

Re: A good choice??

Well.... I need something faster than AGP 8X to do some small CAD projects not major ones, just small ones for school etc.
So I am looking at the Asus M2N now. The M2N is $24AUD extra but it has PCIe x16, has 4 SATAII ports that support RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 5 and it also supports 8GB of DDRII RAM. It uses the Nvidia MCP430 chipset instead of the MCP405 that the Asus M2N8-VMX comes with.

Here's an internet image of the Asus M2N-1394 (with Firewire. The one i'm looking at has no firewire ports.)



In my opinion, the only problem about the M2N is the ITE I/O controller chip. It is very close to the mounting screw hole. If a screwdriver was to slip, there would be in big trouble if it hit the I/O controller chip pins.

The strange thing about Nvidia MCP chipsets is that they don't have a southbridge anymore. They must be integrated into the Northbridge now??

Thanks.

[tazwegion]

Re: A good choice??

The strange thing about Nvidia MCP chipsets is that they don't have a southbridge anymore. They must be integrated into the Northbridge now??

Since AMD integrated the memory controller into the CPU, the north/south bridge chipset format/design hasn't been required