Capacitors and audio distortion

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • pol098
    Member
    • Sep 2011
    • 18
    • UK

    #1

    Capacitors and audio distortion

    Bad capacitors in audio

    I don't know if this is considered on topic - this site is called badcaps, but is mainly about electrolytic capacitors causing malfunction in power circuits due to high ESR. I didn't find any references to "Bateman", or any likely hits with "distortion", so maybe this has not been discussed, or is so familiar to everyone that it's never discussed.

    In audio circuits capacitors of all sorts can produce distortion. Ceramic capacitors, as a class, have a particularly bad reputation, but this seems to be largely mythical. I don't know how audible these effects are (most claims are subjective), but some very detailed measurements were made in the early 1990s, finding distortion due to capacitors to be significant and measurable. A series of articles was published by C Bateman: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/Capacitor-Sound . Identified as myths: all ceramic capacitors distort; dielectric absorption causes (audio) smearing and compresses dynamic range; polypropylene is an efficient material; ESR of a capacitor has a fixed value.

    The 1992 results suggested that the lowest-distortion types up to 10nF were C0G ceramic (not all ceramic), extended foil/polystyrene or extended foil/polypropylene, with the lead-out wires soldered to the electrodes. PET capacitors are very variable, often with large distortion. Metallised film should be avoided. A particular 100nF ceramic disc capacitor type had about the worst distortion. Specific capacitor ranges were mentioned; I don't know if there is more recent information on current types.

    Electrolytics distorted more, varying from one make to another and with bias voltage. Tantalum beads were 10 times worse than aluminium. For all these measurement absolute distortion was not a large figure; 0.004% (for a single capacitor) was considered very bad. Shunting an electrolytic with a lower-distortion type of lower capacitance produced insignificant benefit. The author considered that use of a 100 microfarad electrolytic in the signal path of an audio amplifier was never a good idea.

    ESR was not considered in detail; one test was made on 100 microfarad/10V electrolytics with ESR from 0.012 to 0.5 ohms. The low-ESR one produced nearly twice as much distortion with DC bias, 10 times more when unbiased (unbiased always produces less distortion).

    I won't go on, the articles speak for themselves. If anyone is interested the topic can be discussed further; there's not a lot I can say, other than parroting Bateman.

    Maybe the badcaps organisation can branch out into selling certified low-distortion capacitors?
  • 999999999
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Sep 2006
    • 774
    • USA

    #2
    Re: Capacitors and audio distortion

    It should be clarified that you, and the article author, are talking about audio signal coupling capacitors, not in other areas of amp circuits like the power supply.

    Nothing new to discuss really, audio purists use film & foil input coupling cap if any, and split rail power supplies so there is no need for an audio output coupling cap. Low budget amp designs without split rail PSU have an electrolytic output cap because an appropriate uF value film cap would be huge and costly.

    COG ceramic don't fit either role due to their low values, though I suppose you might make an EQ boost using them but purists often want to avoid this too... the best sounding capacitor is no capacitor.

    Comment

    • pol098
      Member
      • Sep 2011
      • 18
      • UK

      #3
      Re: Capacitors and audio distortion

      "... about audio signal coupling capacitors, not in other areas of amp circuits like the power supply."

      Yes, for audio circuits not PSUs.

      "Nothing new to discuss really..."

      Not new as such in a 1992 article... But there are things there that surprised me. I had assumed that all wound capacitors were essentially equivalent; the article reported that film capacitors were a lot worse than other types, and also varied very much even within the same batch, with some having very low distortion, others many times higher. Tantalum beads are ten times worse than wet Al.

      The article also quantifies and justifies some things, and debunks others. Ceramic capacitors are not inherently bad, though some types are. Bypassing electrolytics does not help distortion.

      "the best sounding capacitor is no capacitor"

      Audio ICs make it ever easier to avoid capacitors in the signal path.

      Most of the information is probably of most interest to the audio fanatic, and largely inaudible.

      Comment

      • PeteS in CA
        Badcaps Legend
        • Aug 2005
        • 3579
        • USA, Unsure of Planet

        #4
        Re: Capacitors and audio distortion

        The 1992 results suggested that the lowest-distortion types up to 10nF were C0G ceramic (not all ceramic), extended foil/polystyrene or extended foil/polypropylene, with the lead-out wires soldered to the electrodes. PET capacitors are very variable, often with large distortion. Metallised film should be avoided. A particular 100nF ceramic disc capacitor type had about the worst distortion. Specific capacitor ranges were mentioned; I don't know if there is more recent information on current types.
        COG (= NPO) tend to be low value as ceramic caps go. X7R goes somewhat higher, but the temperature and voltage coefficients can be significant (and probably the distortion is higher than COG/NPO). Z5U and Y5V are higher in nominal value, but the temperature and voltage coefficients are horrible, and I think the distortion is much worse.

        Does "PET" mean polyester (polyethylene terephthalate, IIRC)? I think polystyrene is getting hard to find - un-PC. Polypropylene is fairly common, I think. How did polycarbonate and polysulfone do? I think those latter two are fairly available. Sources ... look into Wima, Roederstein, and Evox-Rifa. That metalized film performs differently from film-foil is interesting.
        PeteS in CA

        Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
        ****************************
        To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
        ****************************

        Comment

        • pol098
          Member
          • Sep 2011
          • 18
          • UK

          #5
          Re: Capacitors and audio distortion

          "How did polycarbonate and polysulfone do?"
          AFAIR polycarbonate did well, as did Polyphenylene Sulphide, if that's the same.

          Some more from the article, which will answer some questions:

          If you read the article (recommended), abbreviations much used are
          Polyphenylene Sulphide - PPS
          Polypropylene film - PP
          Polyethylene Terephthalate - PET; metallised PET are discussed extensively
          Polystyrene - PS

          Foil/film capacitors that make their connections via extended foil were preferred to types that used a different method: "All metallised film and many foil and film capacitors use a 'Schoop' metal spray end connection to connect the electrodes to the lead-out wires"; this has been found to sometimes lead to an undesirable non-ohmic connection.

          "Having measured several hundred metallised PET capacitors, I found many with extremely low distortion if measured without DC bias. I also found far too many showing very bad distortions, both DC biased and unbiased, yet metallised PET capacitors continue to be used in the signal paths of high quality audio amplifier designs."

          Electrolytic capacitor myths:
          - High ESR capacitors degarde sound quality, low ESR is always best.
          The article didn't systematically make ESR-related tests, but in the single test that was made low ESR correlated with very much higher distortion
          - Electrolytics are highly inductive at audio frequency
          Not so
          - Polar electrolytics should be biased to half rated voltage to minimise distortion
          Not so
          Electrolytic capacitor distortion is mostly third harmonic
          Not so

          I hope this continues to be of interest

          Comment

          • pol098
            Member
            • Sep 2011
            • 18
            • UK

            #6
            Re: Capacitors and audio distortion

            By the way, if anyone's interested the series of articles describe in great detail the design and construction of a 1kHz sinewave generator with distortion better than 1ppm (0.0001%). Circuit diagrams and PCBs for the generator and an associated very sharp notch filter included. Not a project for a spare evening, but perfectly feasible.

            Comment

            • pol098
              Member
              • Sep 2011
              • 18
              • UK

              #7
              Re: Capacitors and audio distortion

              A note of caution: the work I'm citing, new to me, is 20 years old. The problems with, in particular, metallised film capacitors, varied from unit to unit, and were not characteristic of the type of construction; the best were very low-distortion. One would hope that manufacturers would have taken this on board, and that the method of connecting leads, or whatever other cause there was, has long been rectified, and distortion no longer a problem. On the other hand, you'd expect them to have got electrolytics right by now... It would be interesting if anyone knows of more recent work than the articles cited at this level of detail.

              Similarly the low-distortion oscillator. Maybe some components are no longer available, possibly there are better ones, but the detailed comments on ultra-low-distortion design (for example, the care in choosing resistor types) is still relevant.

              Comment

              Related Topics

              Collapse

              • spleenharvester
                Ceramic capacitors/resistors - do suppliers matter?
                by spleenharvester
                I want to buy one of those SMD component books so I don't have to spend as much time searching my scrap boards for what I need, specifically ceramic caps and resistors as they seem to be what I spend most of my time replacing. But the only ones I can find are no name brands. Does manufacturer matter as much for SMD parts as it does with electrolytics or is the generic stuff likely to be fine?
                05-01-2025, 05:34 PM
              • samtron786
                Ceramic capacitors half short circuit or full short circuit?
                by samtron786
                Hello
                two small ceramic capacitors with values 040. Can you tell me
                whether they are half short circuit or full short circuit?

                Thank you
                01-07-2024, 05:20 AM
              • samson7point1@yahoo.com
                Help troubleshooting an audio problem with an RCA SGT-250 CED Player
                by samson7point1@yahoo.com
                The Problem: This player has a toggle switch to select between Stereo, Mono R, and Mono L. Regardless of the setting it outputs the sound to both the L&R audio jacks. In the Mono R position, the audio output level is normal (from both the L and R audio output jacks), in the Stereo position the audio output is about half the volume, and in Mono L, it's about 3/4 the volume. Something about putting it into Stereo mode is causing the volume to drop significantly and I can't figure it out.

                The player processes the audio signal using two different reference frequencies. The "R"...
                04-30-2024, 11:22 AM
              • dreamlayers
                Weird clipping on Logitech Z-10 speakers
                by dreamlayers
                I bought used Logitech Z-10 computer speakers. They can act as a USB audio device or accept line input, and they have a headphone output jack. Some music didn't sound right, so I played a frequency sweep and heard other frequencies and beat frequencies between them and the sweep. I uploaded a spectrogram of a frequency sweep. From the very start, some but not all odd harmonics are visible, indicating symmetric distortion. Then at higher frequencies there are descending images of those harmonics, indicating non-linearity and constant higher frequency noise mixing with the harmonics. The image of...
                05-22-2025, 11:41 AM
              • i_am_patch
                Roland KR-3500/4500 Digital Piano. Crackling audio sound on all keys -Fixed
                by i_am_patch
                Hi All. I had a Roland KR-3500 Digital Piano (similar to the KR-4500) that exhibited a Crackling audio sound on all keys. After reading somewhere about someone with a similar issue who had replaced all the Electrolytic caps I decided to also go down that route. (Spoiler : It worked !) After some basic troubleshooting I determined that it could be noise feeding thru from the Keyboard scanning since the Demo tunes played back undistorted and the Audio amp / speakers were fine ( Inserted an Audio signal into the rear Audio input). After extracting the main board from the shield, I replaced 7 Capacitors...
                04-30-2024, 08:20 PM
              • Loading...
              • No more items.
              Working...