!@#%&* Ups....

[pentium]

I'm running a backup cycle when the power goes out...



...and I'm switched to UPS power. I carry on like it's nothing and I'm nearly done the backup anyways when about five minutes later I get a low power (10% reserves left) alarm and a minute later the server switches off with a critical battery alert.
Considering how I should have about an hour of life in the battery (gave me more than that last year) I'm amazed how damn fast this battery died. It's only gone through two or three complete cycles and a few momentary losses of power.

[dood]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

perhaps a useful bit of information would be what ups you're talking about

[pentium]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

whoops.
anyways, I'm wondering why the battery died so soon and if there are any cheap substitutes short of replacing the entire UPS. I know that with a bit of work I can shoehorn in a regular car battery but I'll have a heck of a time trying to find a deep cycle battery around here that's still good. I had one in the basement but even though I left it on an overcharge-proof solar powered battery trickle charger for two years it's now dead as a doornail.
I'm also slightly ranting on my downtime (I lost a 300 day streak of uptime! ;_; ) and now that I think about it, I think this would of been better if it was in one of the other forums.

[NxB]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

Lead Acid inside? You didn't drain it all the way down did you?

[Toasty]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

Still need to know what UPS it is. brand/model/watts or VA

NxB is right. You don't want a lead acid battery inside the case. I have used remote lead acids to the larger APC (1200-1500watt) units with success.

How old is the battery?
Is the charger circuit working correctly? Might be cooking the battery.

These gel-cell batts don't last forever. Typically 2-3 years max before they really drop off in capacity. Especially inside the case where it's very warm.

[pentium]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

It's some UPS made by Nexxtech. I don't remember the exact rating but when I got it, it ran my Proliant 1600, modem, router and an 8-port network switch off the battery for over an hour. I think it was above 1200Watts though.
The battery itself is nearing two and a half years old so I guess it is getting tired but it's certainly not overheating in the storage room as I have seen it drop to -5c in the winter and hover at about 15c in the summer. The room is also well ventilated.

[Toasty]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

Yup. At 2-1/2 years it's probably down to 1/2 it's rated Ah's. A battery load tester can be used to determine where it is in the life cycle. The batts are typically 6v or 12v, 7-18Ah affairs and sometimes wired in series for either 12v or 24v, depending on the unit ratings.

They're not meant to keep you going forever. Their function is to allow you sufficient time to shut down what you're doing and bring the system down gracefully.

I used to live in an area where blackouts/brownouts were frequent and quite unexpected. I eventually ended up getting some lawn tractor batteries and remote wired them to my main 1500w UPS. I could run 2 systems full tilt for 3 hours before the UPS would start to indicate it was getting close to quitting time. It still had enough reserve to make a small pot of coffee! Gotta have my java!

Cheers!
Toast

[pentium]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

I try to keep my server up as long as I can. I host FTP as well as it should soon also serve as my webserver. The last thing I want is a half hour power interruption bringing the while thing down.

[i4004]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

so get a generator...

>I eventually ended up getting some lawn tractor batteries and remote wired them to my main 1500w UPS. I could run 2 systems full tilt for 3 hours before the UPS would start to indicate it was getting close to quitting time. It still had enough reserve to make a small pot of coffee! Gotta have my java!

there can be a problem here: what is the charging current, and how does that affect the battery/charging time.
you have posts from kc that list things that work for him
but other than that i wouldn't say "everything works"... not at all...
in other words, don't take for granted chargers inside these ups are ment to do big batteries... if nothing, ask the mfr if it's possible or not...

[Wizard]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iwrroFq7UI&NR=1

Invest and rebuild a listeroid with generator, rather than get a screaming generator.

Taming and quieting down listeroid engine can be DONE with not too much effort.
and will last about 2-3 hours per gallon of diesel fuel at 1.5KW to 2KW.

Low vibration listeroid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Kz7...eature=related

Cheers, Wizard

[i4004]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

YES!

yes, yes, yes!

hehe

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001011.php
http://www.otherpower.com/fuking.html

"On careful inspection I found a couple pockets of castin sand in the sump. This would probably destroy the bearings and the bore in pretty short order.. so careful cleaning was required and hopefully I did a good enough job! "

hehe...first you buy it, then you fix it, THEN u use it!

[NxB]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

If it runs on waste oil/bio diesel then you would have pretty much free electricity.

[Toasty]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

i4004 >>what is the charging current, and how does that affect the battery/charging time.<<
Charging for the APC unit is typically 2-4amps initially when the battery is depleted. Quickly drops off over 2 hours then goes into "float". Yes, gel-cell charging is not the same as lead-acid, but it's close enough and the batteries are external to the home/building. The benefit here is that you can get so much more run time with a high Ah capacity battery. Also, the cost difference is nil.

I'm not trying to run the house off of this. If I were needing that much juice, I'd invest in a generator. Came close on 2 occasions, but decided against it for various reasons.

i4004 >>you have posts from kc that list things that work for him<<
Huh?

i4004 >>i wouldn't say "everything works"... not at all...<<
Again

i4004 >>in other words, don't take for granted chargers inside these ups are ment to do big batteries... if nothing, ask the mfr if it's possible or not...<<
I'm not nor did I say big batteries, I said lawn tractor batteries. About the same size as the UPS's batteries, but many times the Ah rating (45-70Ah).

Asking the manufacturer that question will get you a resounding NO. They only recommend using the type of batteries specified for that unit, and only their brand of batteries.

In this litigious environment, they'd be crazy not to.

[Toasty]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

NxB >>If it runs on waste oil/bio diesel then you would have pretty much free electricity.<<

Except for the time to collect, store, filter/process that oil. Including dealing with spills or leaks.

From "waste oil", I trust you mean deep fryer type of waste oil, correct?
Not lubrication oil from gasoline or diesel engines, right?

There is no free lunch.

[Toasty]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

Regular diesel fuel has been super expensive compared to gasoline over the past 1-1/2 years. Prior to then it was cheaper, and now seems headed back that way.

But, finding a local station that supplies diesel requires a 5 mile drive to and from. No stations in that radius (there are dozens) have it.

I weighed the convenience of diesel & gasoline fuels with their storage requirements & hazards, against natural gas & propane when I considered installing a standby generator. I'm not speaking of a portable unit. I mean a 7.5 kW to 12 kW full house running in the Summer type of unit. Fully automated.

My choice would be likely be natural gas as it is already here and there is no storage requirements or oddball permits necessary. Also, I can't remember the last time the gas went out....

[i4004]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

>Charging for the APC unit is typically 2-4amps initially when the battery is depleted. Quickly drops off over 2 hours then goes into "float".

well, there's the problem; i think those chargers are not "clever" at all, and will always do same thing, regardless of battery you put..
effect; charging(say) car battery would take ages and i dunno would it result in destroyed or full battery(?)
i mean how does battery react if you charge it at very low current for ages and ages?

and what is the voltage it gives in the float mode?

"The battery cannot remain at the peak voltage for too long; the maximum allowable time is 48 hours. "
http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm

and you said if quickly drops after 2hrs...you surely can't charge big battery in 2 hrs...

or this
"The topping charge takes another 5 hours and is essential for the well being of the battery. If omitted, the battery would eventually lose the ability to accept a full charge. "
and i dunno if you have topping stage there at all...

if it's like you say, then you'll fill the battery at 30% and then by using trickle you'll make sure it stays at 30% for the rest of it's life, if you don't destroy it completely, because
"Unfortunately, a float charge will never quite top off a battery. And if you leave a lead acid battery on float forever, it'll slowly sulfate, just as if it were left flat briefly."
http://www.dansdata.com/diyups.htm

all i'm saying is that i don't know what chargers are inside ups, but i DOUBT you have good car battery chargers there...i very much doubt it...

>But, finding a local station that supplies diesel requires a 5 mile drive to and from.

is that a long drive?
in america?
i mean even here it's something that's done on dailiy basis...

[pentium]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

Interesting. I have a 12V (it used to be 24V but half the brushes burned out) motor here from a piece of mining equipment that might work well as a generator.

[Toasty]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

i4004 >>i think those chargers are not "clever" at all, and will always do same thing, regardless of battery you put..<<

No. It is not a "timed" charge, as you suggest. It is quite clever and is microprocessor controlled. It monitors the voltage and charging current and determines the correct cutoff. The time it took is what I typically saw on recharge gauge on front panel. From fully depleted to last indicator lit was about 2 hours. So it might be throwing more amps at it than I said.

These are NOT $100 junk UPS's, usually $300-$500 new. Replacement battery packs are easily $70-$100 each. (2) 12v in series.

Since the times I spoke of I have acquired several more and now every machine has at least a 1500va and the file server runs off the 2200va.

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...se_sku=SUA1500
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...se_sku=SUA2200

>>is that a long drive?<<
No, but it's 10 miles out of my way and time. Gasoline is <1 mile away, and is used in all the other equipment I use.

>>but i DOUBT you have good car battery chargers there<<
Again, -NOT- a car battery. It is not trickle charging, which is a continuous low level current at a set voltage. It's float charging which monitors the voltage and waits for a specific voltage level before dropping back to its set cutoff. It then stops charging and monitors the voltage. When it determines the voltage level has dropped to the preset point, it once again cycles the charging of the battery. It keeps the battery topped off nicely, without out-gassing the electrolyte.

>>lead acid battery on float forever, it'll slowly sulfate, just as if it were left flat briefly.<<
Unit also does an automatic self-test weekly to verify battery condition. Switches to inverter mode and runs off battery for 30 seconds. Then it determines if the battery passes or fails or indicates a weakness.

[i4004]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

ok, i'm presuming you have a full battery now(?)
what's its voltage?

[pentium]

Re: !@#%&* Ups....

ok, i'm presuming you have a full battery now(?)
what's its voltage?

Well the interface software only gives me a percentage so that's no good and I can't got and check with my DMM without taking the server down and taking the battery out of the UPS.