Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

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  • TELVM
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Oct 2012
    • 547
    • Spain

    #1

    Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

    Long story short, under a power outage SSD's need some time (fractions of a second) to write down some things, or else data corruption and even SSD bricking may occur.

    Quality SSDs include a supercapacitor:





    ... or a troop of smaller caps:





    ... to auto grant themselves some miliseconds of grace.

    But more pedestrian consumer SSDs lack any of these, and thus are vulnerable to power outages.


    Now have a look at what this guy figured out :

    "... was considering some means of delaying the loss of 5v power to the SSD over and above the general loss of usable power to the rest of the system during the power down sequence.

    Possible solutions that I considered included using a low volt drop diode and a whacking great capacitor in the 5v line followed by an even better solution of using a diode with a whacking great capacitor in the 12v feed to a 5v switching converter to feed the SSD with 5v power.

    In the end, I decided to try an even less exotic solution which was simply to transfer the 5v wire in the single SATA power connector feeding the SSD across to the 5vSB line ...

    ... the much more slowly decaying 5vSB line when I switch the mains supply off at the back of the PSU[4] a few seconds after the OS mediated shutdown has completed and take panic action to commit the data to the NVRAM with the much extended time interval before the 5vSB drops to the 4.75v lower critical limit (no drain on the HT caps from the main PSU rails should make the 5vSB rail decay a much more protracted process than that on the regular 5v rail).

    The only downside with this modification is the extra power drain on the 5vSB line from the SSD. In my case, an extra 1.8W on top of the 3.8W the PC draws from the mains when it is in the shutdown state. Since, according to Intel's technical specs for this drive, it takes 600mW idle and 830mW active, the efficiency of the PSU in this mode looks to be just under 50%. Quite frankly, the extra 1.8W[4] is neither here nor there and is a price well worth paying if it solves the win2k powerdown SSD corruption issue.

    ... In my case, that extra 1.8W in standby due to using the 5vSB to power the SSD is effectively eliminated by my habit of switching the AC power off after each and every shutdown."


    http://www.techiehq.net/diy-computer...ion-89269.html

    I've done a bit of testing with multimeter, and even a gutless wonder can keep the +5VSB alive for about seven seconds after switching off the PSU from the wall, plenty enough for the SSD to shut down safely in the event of a power outage .

    What do you guys think about the idea?



    (And if possible please don't just tell me 'get an UPS!' )
  • kaboom
    "Oh, Grouchy!"
    • Jan 2011
    • 2507
    • USA

    #2
    Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

    Originally posted by TELVM
    I've done a bit of testing with multimeter, and even a gutless wonder can keep the +5VSB alive for about seven seconds after switching off the PSU from the wall, plenty enough for the SSD to shut down safely in the event of a power outage .
    That's not telling you anything- you need to put a load on there.

    How about monitoring 5VSB on an actual working power supply/computer and simply pull the plug. The controller for the main PWM in the PS uses the standby supply when operating- the standby supply will die sooner. Both from more load on it, as well as the main supply discharging the (shared) caps sooner.

    Try a Schottky diode (low Vf), to isolate the drive's power, and large electro across the 5V feed to the drive.
    "pokemon go... to hell!"

    EOL it...
    Originally posted by shango066
    All style and no substance.
    Originally posted by smashstuff30
    guilty,guilty,guilty,guilty!
    guilty of being cheap-made!

    Comment

    • mariushm
      Badcaps Legend
      • May 2011
      • 3799

      #3
      Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

      The guy is an idiot, he's shutting down the system and then turning off the power supply from the back, so he won't even get 5v standby.

      If you really have problems with SSD losing data at shutdown, grab a couple of supercapacitors and put them in series...

      For example two of these will give you 1.5F 5.4v : http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...197-ND/3878077

      The only downside is that because the capacitance is so high the power supply will pump a few amps in the capacitors at boot and may take a few seconds seconds until voltage ramps up to 5v so it would be a good idea to add a relay (or n-channel mosfet) to feed 5v to ssd only when voltage goes above a threshold like 4.7v or something.

      Comment

      • TELVM
        Badcaps Veteran
        • Oct 2012
        • 547
        • Spain

        #4
        Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

        Originally posted by kaboom
        ... How about monitoring 5VSB on an actual working power supply/computer and simply pull the plug ...
        Where would you poke with a DMM to read +5VSB on a running comp?

        Comment

        • mariushm
          Badcaps Legend
          • May 2011
          • 3799

          #5
          Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

          Comment

          • TELVM
            Badcaps Veteran
            • Oct 2012
            • 547
            • Spain

            #6
            Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

            Tested it on a comp, switched off the PSU while the system was running and only after about two seconds did the +5VSB voltage start to drop.

            Might be that guy is far from being an idiot.

            Comment

            • mariushm
              Badcaps Legend
              • May 2011
              • 3799

              #7
              Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

              The voltage is dropping slower than the other voltages because you have very little stuff on the 5v standby and high capacitance on the power supply and the motherboard.
              Put a 100 ohm resistor between the 5v sb and ground and then do the measurement again. Now keep in mind this 100 ohm is just 5mA - your ssd will draw 100mA+.

              It also depends when the power supply is switched off (where in an AC cycle) and how much the system is loaded and how big the primary capacitors are because all these affect how many ms will the power supply continue working until the input voltage drops so much the psu turns off.

              Basically, just because it stayed on 2seconds, it doesn't mean it will always be 2s or more.

              Comment

              • ben7
                Capaholic
                • Jan 2011
                • 4059
                • USA

                #8
                Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                You could use some schottky diodes and a large (capacitance wise) capacitor. The diodes shouldn't drop too much voltage, and they will block the power from going back into the computer.
                Muh-soggy-knee

                Comment

                • tom66
                  EVs Rule
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 32560
                  • UK

                  #9
                  Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                  No, he could be right. Most 5VSB uses a simple flyback, which can typically operate over a very wide range. The main switcher won't work beyond about 20% of rated voltage.

                  So it's sort of like an early warning ac detect because the main rails collapse before standby.

                  I have had a TV PSU continue to pump 5VSTBY @ 0.5W with just ~20V on the 450V cap -- I mean it's obviously not designed to work continuously like that (output ripple is likely horrible) but it lasted 10 seconds from 150uF starting at 390V (when you think about that, 5Ws = 5J, it only uses 1/4 the capacitor's energy so it's obviously horribly inefficient.)

                  If that SSD with 24 tantalums on it has 16V devices it looks like it runs off 12V and dc-dc's that down to 5V, so it's a very effective hold up.
                  Last edited by tom66; 01-13-2014, 06:51 AM.
                  Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                  For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                  Comment

                  • shovenose
                    Send Doge Memes
                    • Aug 2010
                    • 6575
                    • USA

                    #10
                    Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                    No, the SSD would be running off 5V.

                    Comment

                    • tom66
                      EVs Rule
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 32560
                      • UK

                      #11
                      Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                      SATA provides 12V and 5V, they could be using both in this one
                      http://www.storagereview.com/images/...-Board-Top.jpg
                      Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                      For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                      Comment

                      • TELVM
                        Badcaps Veteran
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 547
                        • Spain

                        #12
                        Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                        Most enterprise SSDs can draw both from +12V or from +5V.

                        Most 3.5" consumer SSDs draw from +5V only, we can cut +12V and +3.3V from the SATA power connector and they will still work OK. 1.8" SSDs draw from +3.3V.

                        Originally posted by tom66
                        ... it's obviously not designed to work continuously like that (output ripple is likely horrible) ...
                        ^ Yep +5VSB ripple is some drawback .

                        Originally posted by ben7
                        You could use some schottky diodes and a large (capacitance wise) capacitor. The diodes shouldn't drop too much voltage, and they will block the power from going back into the computer.
                        Could a +5V Schottky rectifier scrounged from a PSU do this work?

                        What capacitance for the cap, for a 3W tops drawing SSD and several seconds of grace? Guess low ESR would be handy here.

                        Also wouldn't extra inrush current be a problem with this cap?



                        BTW here's a very interesting reading on the subject, an excerpt:

                        "... The exact same OCZ - with an incredible array of failures, CRC errors, lost sectors as reported by smartctl - when downgraded to firmware Revision 1.6 - then showed ZERO data corruption when the exact same OS-based parallel write testing was carried out.

                        Which is fascinating in itself.

                        Further investigation then dug up an interesting nugget: it turns out that OCZ apparently had been warned by Sandforce not to enable a switch in the firmware which would result in "increased speed". OCZ, in their desperate attempt to remain "king of the speed wars" ignored the advice that doing so would result in data corruption. The results correlate with this advice: at higher speeds, data corruption is guaranteed to occur ..."
                        Analysis of SSD Reliability during power-outages

                        Comment

                        • goodpsusearch
                          Badcaps Legend
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 2850
                          • Greece

                          #13
                          Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                          This is a very bad idea. You will be stressing 5vsb, already stressed because on most computers it runs 24/7 (I switch off psu button when PC not used) and the 5vsb caps being already the most prone to failure are going to fail sooner. And then you will have horrible ripple going to the SSD drive.

                          Comment

                          • shovenose
                            Send Doge Memes
                            • Aug 2010
                            • 6575
                            • USA

                            #14
                            Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                            Not if it's a well designed power supply with a high quality capacitor there.

                            Comment

                            • TELVM
                              Badcaps Veteran
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 547
                              • Spain

                              #15
                              Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                              Here they were developing a small battery backup for SSD:





                              http://translate.google.com/translat...5131&sandbox=1

                              Comment

                              • tom66
                                EVs Rule
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 32560
                                • UK

                                #16
                                Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                                A 3V CR2032 is unlikely to be able to provide the couple of watts required for an SSD.
                                Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                                For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                                Comment

                                • tom66
                                  EVs Rule
                                  • Apr 2011
                                  • 32560
                                  • UK

                                  #17
                                  Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                                  Originally posted by shovenose
                                  Not if it's a well designed power supply with a high quality capacitor there.
                                  Lots of "ifs" there with many PSUs, though!
                                  Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                                  For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                                  Comment

                                  • shovenose
                                    Send Doge Memes
                                    • Aug 2010
                                    • 6575
                                    • USA

                                    #18
                                    Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                                    Originally posted by tom66
                                    A 3V CR2032 is unlikely to be able to provide the couple of watts required for an SSD.
                                    What if they two, one on each side of the board? That should be enough, right?

                                    Comment

                                    • mariushm
                                      Badcaps Legend
                                      • May 2011
                                      • 3799

                                      #19
                                      Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                                      A CR2032 is designed to output a continuous 0.1-0.2 mA and can probably sustain 7-10mA bursts of a few seconds.

                                      Two batteries are not going to make it better, in series you're just going to achieve 5-6v required, but the current remains the same <10 mA, they can't provide the current a SSD needs, which is about 50-100mA

                                      4 x AAA batteries would work... they can manage 100-300mA for short periods of time with no problems. 5v -> cap ->ssd , battery pack -> diode (so here you have less than 5v) -> cap
                                      When main voltage goes below voltage after diode, the diode lets current flow from battery into the capacitor, ssd still has power.

                                      But now there's a problem with the SSD remaining powered on from the batteries. Easily solved with a relay or a mosfet and a microcontroller. Microcontroller can just monitor 5v from pc, when on, hit the relay and connect ssd. When 5v goes out, keep relay or mosfet on for 5-10 more seconds then turn relay off and go to sleep monitoring the 5v voltage.

                                      Or you could just use a supercapacitors and be done with it.

                                      Comment

                                      • shovenose
                                        Send Doge Memes
                                        • Aug 2010
                                        • 6575
                                        • USA

                                        #20
                                        Re: Feeding SSDs from +5VSB for outage data corruption safety

                                        Or just not buy crappy SSDs.

                                        Comment

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