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Old 03-01-2017, 09:17 AM   #21
jasko_jacker
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

I have connected a very thin needle at my vacuum pump (I bought it for repair cellphones screens ) and this system works great even to remove a wrong ball on bga chips
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent24 View Post
I wouldn't bother. Get a clone 474A+ desoldering station. They're cheap and will work much better than a homemade one for the same price.

If you can afford it, get a genuine Hakko one.
That Hakko 474 is now discontinued and according to Hakko's site, it's replacement is a HAKKO FR-410.

My current digital soldering station run with one or two irons hooked up to it at any one time. I can switch irons out and turn them on and off if I want. So, for example, right now, I have a 120 watt iron, but I also have an iron made just for SMD components. If I'm working on just SMD components, I might turn off the 120 watt iron. If I don't use an iron for a bit, it'll go into standby mode and cool down to much a lower temperature. It warms up really quick like when I remove it from it's stand.

Anyway, the micro soldering iron is specifically made for SMD components. There's a problem, albeit you might not realize it, with SMD components and thermal shock. Using something like the 120 watt iron on an SMD component can cause these micro fractures, that you won't see with the naked eye. They can be hard to detect, because the component might appear to work successfully for a bit, but they lead to premature failures.

Looking at the Hakko 474 and the Hakko FR-410, it looks like I would be using the device to heat the solder and remove the solder, just not remove the solder. This could be a problem with SMD components. Do you know if it is? I know Weller makes a desoldering station, similar to the Hakko one. I can buy their pump seperately.

I guess with SMD components, I probably wouldn't be using the desoldering station though. I do have problems unsoldering SMD ICs, I've noticed. I have trouble lifting them from the board. I think maybe the good braid will help with this though.
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

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Originally Posted by nojgib View Post
Doesn't have to be fancy. This is the one I use:
http://www.parts-express.com/sterlin...ucker--370-255
It was available at my local store also. It works well for those stubborn through holes that wont come clean and if memory serves it was only ~$15
See, I think that device is what I was picturing, something similar at least. I heat the solder with one of my current irons, and then just use a device like that to remove the solder, once it's liquid. I was thinking of just using a vacuum pump though, instead of one of the manual ones. Just rigging up something with a collection chamber and a vacuum pump.

From what I can tell, that device you linked too doesn't actually heat the solder. Have you ever found yourself wishing it could? Wishing you had one that could heat the solder and remove it, or do you find it's easy to use and does the job just fine?
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

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Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
From what I can tell, that device you linked too doesn't actually heat the solder. Have you ever found yourself wishing it could? Wishing you had one that could heat the solder and remove it, or do you find it's easy to use and does the job just fine?
Exactly, it doesn't heat the solder itself, so its uses are limited beyond single or double-sided PCBs without plated through holes.

For multi-layer boards with PTHs, a heated desoldering gun with continuous vacuum is much more useful.

A one-shot solder sucker is still very useful to have, but it won't do everything.


For SMDs, the thermal shock issue is why hot air rework is even better. Desoldering SMDs especially, is very easy with a hot air tool.
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:45 PM   #25
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasko_jacker View Post
I have connected a very thin needle at my vacuum pump (I bought it for repair cellphones screens ) and this system works great even to remove a wrong ball on bga chips
What's the purpose of the needle? Does your vacuum pump have the ability to heat the needle or something? Could you please send a picture of your setup? I'd like to see the pump and needle, but if you don't mind, I'd love to see you're BGA rework station.

I need to replace the motor in my BGA rework station. I've upgraded the ceramic heating elements to Elstiens, although I don't think it was necessary. In mine, the ceramic ones are just for preheating. The actual rework is done with hot air.

I want to work on creating my own pre-heater. I found open source hardware and software for a DIY PID controller. I think that'd be the hardest part. I have ideas though. Probably just dreaming and a lot of people would probably consider my features just useless. Like a touch screen display that shows each heating element. You can just tap the heating element to turn it on or off. You would have the ability to monitor each heating element individually. And I'm almost thinking of an easy way to change the heating elements. Like just pop them out, put a new one in, if you needed to....

You'd have the ability to operate and control the pre-heater via an RS232 serial port on the back, but I want USB as well and on top of that, maybe ethernet, so you could control it remotely over the computer. Just dreams for now I guess though.
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Old 03-03-2017, 05:39 PM   #26
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

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Originally Posted by Agent24 View Post
Exactly, it doesn't heat the solder itself, so its uses are limited beyond single or double-sided PCBs without plated through holes.

For multi-layer boards with PTHs, a heated desoldering gun with continuous vacuum is much more useful.

A one-shot solder sucker is still very useful to have, but it won't do everything.


For SMDs, the thermal shock issue is why hot air rework is even better. Desoldering SMDs especially, is very easy with a hot air tool.
I've found, sometimes, removing an SMD component with hot air is the only way to successfully remove it. Sometimes, the SMD components might be connected to a large ground plane or something, where the micro soldering irons just aren't powerful enough to transfer enough heat. The ground plane acts as a giant heatsink. In times like this, a preheater and a hot air rework tool is a real life safer!

That's how I remove SMD ICs, but I worry about the heat damaging some of the ICs, like flash based ICs...how do you guys normally remove SMD type ICs? I saw a video where a guy puts one giant blob of solder on all the pins on one side, then did the same with the other side, then heated the one side real hot, heated the other side real hot, and before the first had time to cool down, he just lifted it straight off the board. I tried this but ended up ripping a pad off the board. Maybe it takes a little more practice?
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
I've found, sometimes, removing an SMD component with hot air is the only way to successfully remove it. Sometimes, the SMD components might be connected to a large ground plane or something, where the micro soldering irons just aren't powerful enough to transfer enough heat. The ground plane acts as a giant heatsink. In times like this, a preheater and a hot air rework tool is a real life safer!

That's how I remove SMD ICs, but I worry about the heat damaging some of the ICs, like flash based ICs...how do you guys normally remove SMD type ICs? I saw a video where a guy puts one giant blob of solder on all the pins on one side, then did the same with the other side, then heated the one side real hot, heated the other side real hot, and before the first had time to cool down, he just lifted it straight off the board. I tried this but ended up ripping a pad off the board. Maybe it takes a little more practice?


Perhaps the low temperature solder would help?
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Old 03-04-2017, 08:57 AM   #28
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
What's the purpose of the needle? Does your vacuum pump have the ability to heat the needle or something? Could you please send a picture of your setup? I'd like to see the pump and needle, but if you don't mind, I'd love to see you're BGA rework station.

I need to replace the motor in my BGA rework station. I've upgraded the ceramic heating elements to Elstiens, although I don't think it was necessary. In mine, the ceramic ones are just for preheating. The actual rework is done with hot air.

I want to work on creating my own pre-heater. I found open source hardware and software for a DIY PID controller. I think that'd be the hardest part. I have ideas though. Probably just dreaming and a lot of people would probably consider my features just useless. Like a touch screen display that shows each heating element. You can just tap the heating element to turn it on or off. You would have the ability to monitor each heating element individually. And I'm almost thinking of an easy way to change the heating elements. Like just pop them out, put a new one in, if you needed to....

You'd have the ability to operate and control the pre-heater via an RS232 serial port on the back, but I want USB as well and on top of that, maybe ethernet, so you could control it remotely over the computer. Just dreams for now I guess though.
This is the suction tool with vacuum pump. It must be used together with a hot air station.
Other photos concerning my infrared station. I've built it a few years ago, and it works very well, (although it is not aesthetically beautiful) I soldered there at least two boards per day. I would change it with this bottom heater:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/252447429202?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Unfortunately there are no square eilstein elements of the right size.
For the top heater however this is a good solution:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/330745975870?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IR.jpg (215.1 KB, 133 views)
File Type: jpg IR2.jpg (161.8 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg IR1.jpg (181.9 KB, 114 views)
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keeney123 View Post
Perhaps the low temperature solder would help?
That's what I thought. I thought maybe he was using that stuff that stays liquid (or molten, whatever you want to call it) longer. I think my mistake was thinking he kept it warm just by heating it super hot. He said something about modifying the soldering gun he had to get much hotter temps, and had a link on how to do that. But maybe he's just using that low temp solder....
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasko_jacker View Post
This is the suction tool with vacuum pump. It must be used together with a hot air station.
Other photos concerning my infrared station. I've built it a few years ago, and it works very well, (although it is not aesthetically beautiful) I soldered there at least two boards per day. I would change it with this bottom heater:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/252447429202?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Unfortunately there are no square eilstein elements of the right size.
For the top heater however this is a good solution:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/330745975870?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
So, from the pictures you sent, it looks like you built the BGA rework station yourself. Is that true? I noticed you used some third party PID controllers, rather than creating one yourself. Is this true? Do you have any schematics you could share? I want to do something similar, but use open source / open hardware PID controllers. I want to create the circuit boards myself and everything. But I'd love to see how you hooked everything up together.

Thanks!
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Old 03-04-2017, 05:30 PM   #31
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
I've found, sometimes, removing an SMD component with hot air is the only way to successfully remove it. Sometimes, the SMD components might be connected to a large ground plane or something, where the micro soldering irons just aren't powerful enough to transfer enough heat. The ground plane acts as a giant heatsink. In times like this, a preheater and a hot air rework tool is a real life safer!

That's how I remove SMD ICs, but I worry about the heat damaging some of the ICs, like flash based ICs...how do you guys normally remove SMD type ICs? I saw a video where a guy puts one giant blob of solder on all the pins on one side, then did the same with the other side, then heated the one side real hot, heated the other side real hot, and before the first had time to cool down, he just lifted it straight off the board. I tried this but ended up ripping a pad off the board. Maybe it takes a little more practice?
I generally remove all SMD components with hot air. I've yet to damage anything. Maybe in my learning phase but that was why I practised with scrap boards.

Yes, practice, then practice some more. Get a load of scrap boards and practice removing and reinstalling the various different SMD components. It's taken me just over 2 years to go from being able to join two wires to being able to remove and replace any SMD component confidently.
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Old 03-05-2017, 06:08 AM   #32
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
So, from the pictures you sent, it looks like you built the BGA rework station yourself. Is that true? I noticed you used some third party PID controllers, rather than creating one yourself. Is this true? Do you have any schematics you could share? I want to do something similar, but use open source / open hardware PID controllers. I want to create the circuit boards myself and everything. But I'd love to see how you hooked everything up together.

Thanks!
Yes, I built it.
It's not very convenient to design pid by yourself, because require a lot of work and it's difficult to reach the precision of a industrial pid. This should be an exercise for an electronic student. I have the knowledge but not the time to project a pid.
the top heater is the same as the IR6000 achi as well as the TOP PID altec PC410.
I used these parts because they are cheap also allow me to use the IR6000 software with a notebook and a com port with USB adapter.
The bottom heater is made with the quartz tubes and is controlled by PID BOTTOM rex-c100; not need be very sophisticated, its purpose is to keep the temperature constant under the motherboard.
The circuit is very simple but works well.
The photos concern the old prototype, without the bottom pid. In its place I had used a circuit of an old adjustable welder.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DYI IR STATION.jpg (460.3 KB, 140 views)
File Type: jpg 2.jpg (295.9 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg OLD VERSION.jpg (263.4 KB, 123 views)

Last edited by jasko_jacker; 03-05-2017 at 06:16 AM..
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasko_jacker View Post
Yes, I built it.
It's not very convenient to design pid by yourself, because require a lot of work and it's difficult to reach the precision of a industrial pid. This should be an exercise for an electronic student. I have the knowledge but not the time to project a pid.
the top heater is the same as the IR6000 achi as well as the TOP PID altec PC410.
I used these parts because they are cheap also allow me to use the IR6000 software with a notebook and a com port with USB adapter.
The bottom heater is made with the quartz tubes and is controlled by PID BOTTOM rex-c100; not need be very sophisticated, its purpose is to keep the temperature constant under the motherboard.
The circuit is very simple but works well.
The photos concern the old prototype, without the bottom pid. In its place I had used a circuit of an old adjustable welder.
Do you mind if I use your schematic if I wanted to, and modify it a bit? Or would you prefer I not?

Thanks!
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:24 PM   #34
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

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Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
Do you mind if I use your schematic if I wanted to, and modify it a bit? Or would you prefer I not?

Thanks!
No problem, you can modify it, but post your changes.
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Old 03-05-2017, 05:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

If I ever get around to using the schematic, I will definitely be posting what I do. Currently, I lack the ability to design a PID controller myself. But I found schematics for one that I'm allowed to use and modify in anyway I see fit. I was thinking of using them and creating my own rework type station, but a high end type system, you know?

It's a bit of a dream. I mainly wanted to see how you had the heating elements hooked up to the PID controller and to themselves. Believe it or not, I couldn't find much information on how to wire ceramic heating elements. I figured when I bought my Elsteins, they'd have come with some sort of wiring diagram, but nope, nadda.

If I ever do make one though, I plan on keeping it 100% open software / open hardware.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

To make a pid by yourself with a micro inside it's not hard if you copy a schematic but keep in mind that if you want to implement some industrial pid features as the autotuning you must create an algoritm in C or assembly and it's not simple.
I remember, when I was in university, you have to use many mathematical formulas to get the controller to manage independently the differences about the distance from top heater and motherboard. Every time you change the distance from the top heater and motherboard , the heat profile that you use don't work properly without autotuning. The problem is the reactivity of the heat element, it not only produces infrared rays but also produces heat by convention, it heats the air surrounding it and when it is switched off continues to produce heat for a time that you should calculate. This heat could in the final phase of the weld exceed the safety threshold and break the chip .
If you want some help in the future send me a message.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:57 AM   #37
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasko_jacker View Post
To make a pid by yourself with a micro inside it's not hard if you copy a schematic but keep in mind that if you want to implement some industrial pid features as the autotuning you must create an algoritm in C or assembly and it's not simple.
I should have been a bit more clear. The physical design of the PID controller isn't hard, it's the algorithms that I would have trouble with. The highest math I've ever taken was pre-calculus. I started using Khan Academy to learn a higher math level. I'd need to know Calculus. The open source / open hardware PID controller I found contains the source code to the PID controller. It's not in C or Assembly though, they use one of them Arduino clones. I don't want to use an Arduino for mine, but I planned on studying the source code to the various controllers in there and work on porting them to C for a different controller, probably some sort of ARM microcontroller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasko_jacker View Post
I remember, when I was in university, you have to use many mathematical formulas to get the controller to manage independently the differences about the distance from top heater and motherboard. Every time you change the distance from the top heater and motherboard , the heat profile that you use don't work properly without autotuning. The problem is the reactivity of the heat element, it not only produces infrared rays but also produces heat by convention, it heats the air surrounding it and when it is switched off continues to produce heat for a time that you should calculate. This heat could in the final phase of the weld exceed the safety threshold and break the chip .
If you want some help in the future send me a message.
Thank you for the information Jasko_Jacker. I just started reading up on PID controllers. I was first trying to learn the higher level math that I'd need. Even with the source code to the open source / open hardware one, I still have a need to understand it all. I need to know how it all works, I feel, to be successful.

I was hoping once I got started, I would create a github repository or two and maybe the community would jump in and more experienced people would give me a hand. I thought stuff like cameras would be real nice. Maybe even eventually, some stepper motors so we move either the PCB or the top heating element. I was looking at those Elstiens that have built in k-type thermocouples. Right now, my current BGA rework station, it came with some really cheap chinese heating elements. I replaced them with Elstiens. A couple were broke and instead of replacing them with the cheap ones, I went for the high quality ones. But I kept the cheap ones. I figured I'd start there, using the cheap ones, just to play around with.

I figured creating the preheater was the first step. Get a working preheater going and then maybe branch the project. People that needed just a preheater could use my (or our) project to create just a preheater, but if they wanted a full DIY IR rework station, they could do that as well. The BGA rework station would of course use the stuff from the preheater, just build on it. But the very first step would be the preheater.

I want to implement some sort of communication. I like RS232, but it's harder and harder to find PCs with an serial port. So I figured at the minimum, it'd have an RS232 port and a USB port. An ethernet port would be nice as well.

There's still a few tings I need to learn though. I think I finally understand transistors. But I still struggle with capacitors. I can't tell how you'd know what rating capacitor you'd need. I don't know how to tell what the ripple current rating should be, etc. I'm not even sure how to use a capacitor yet. Until I understand that, I'm not physically capable of designing the circuit. Not yet atleast.
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:57 PM   #38
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

jasko_jacker,

Do you think this is a good starting point for developing a PID controller for a pre-heater?

http://cms.edn.com/contenteetimes/do...0/f-wescot.pdf

The part that worries me a bit is on page 4. It says,
Quote:
Thermal systems tend to have very
complex responses. I’m going to
ignore quite a bit of detail and give a
very approximate model. Unless your
performance requirements are severe,
an accurate model isn’t necessary
I wonder if a pre-heater and rework station is one of the situations where the performance requirements are severe....is this what those industrial PID controllers have and this documentation lacks? severe performance requirements.......
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Old 03-07-2017, 05:10 PM   #39
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

Vacuum pumps were mentioned...

i use Magnet solenoid operated 30Watt 230vac Desolderer. its Nominal 30Watt isnt i think as much as it gets into Heated Tip nozzle, as the structure doesnt pass heat that well, so its more delicate than 30Watt Nominal power.

as its solenoid operated, with push button held down the "lungs" suck for 1-second'ish and wont blow out unless push button released.

the "lungs" reservoir on it is quite large, so lotsa Desoldering possible to do before cleaning it reservoir is needed.

they come as Standard with 110Vac type USA socket. so i use adapter in it for EU spec.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30W-220V-5...oAAOSwPCVYBx9E

of course this is not good tool for various SMD components, but i just wanted to share.
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Suggestions for desoldering braid.

I have received my Chemtronics Soder-Wick No-Clean desoldering braids and I'm just mind blown at how amazing well this works! With the radio shack stuff I was using, I'd always have to add new solder to the old. This stuff even works with just the old solder! And it actually sucks up all the solder. Most of the time, I don't even have to touch the iron to the leg to break it free. The radio shack stuff never did that. It even sucks up the solder in the hole!

I am officially sold for life on this product!!!!


For the electronic desoldering ones, are the guns better than the irons, vice-versa, or are they pretty equal? I'm kinda liking the gun. Maybe I'll save up and buy a nice one though. Maybe I'll save up and get one of those HAKKO FR-410, but until then, just a manual one or something cheap.
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