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The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

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    #16
    Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

    Originally posted by yanz
    Panasonic FJ Capacitor

    So, performance grade of panasonic alumunium electrolytic capacitor series (lower to greater):

    FC -> FK -> FJ -> FM
    ~ No ~

    FM is less than Ruby MBZ
    FJ is more than MBZ but less than MCZ

    It goes:

    FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ

    I 'think' FL = FJ but I only have data on two sizes of FL.

    .

    .
    Mann-Made Global Warming.
    - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

    -
    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

    - Dr Seuss
    -
    You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
    -

    Comment


      #17
      Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

      these pics confirm the fj i have here are counterfeits.
      https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4600
      Originally posted by yanz
      Panasonic FJ Capacitor

      For more than a year we had been questioning about its data specification. We see them in a lot of modern motherboards (even cheap board like ECS) and vga card (especially powercolor). Thanks to Willawake, he found the FJ datasheet that Panasonic it self hide it for no reason.

      It turns out that this caps is for real, from Panasonic, and many motherboards/vga card manufacturers use it because it is comparable to: Chemicon KZG (good cap), Rubycon MBZ (good cap), Nichicon HM (it's badcaps in past time).

      So if you found this FJ cap on a motherboard or vga card you want to choose, fear not, they are good caps.









      Datasheet:
      Panasonic FJ Capacitor
      Made in Malaysia

      Another thread about FJ capacitor you'll find on this badcaps forum:

      https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1801
      https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=720


      So, performance grade of panasonic alumunium electrolytic capacitor series (lower to greater):


      FC -> FK -> FJ -> FM

      Comment


        #18
        Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

        Thanks I have the data sheets on file and I'm aware of what's in them:
        You obviously haven't checked them because you are wrong.

        Comparing same volt, uF, and can sizes:

        FJ - 6.3v 1000uF 10x12.5 - 1540/.025
        FM - 6.3v 1000uF 10x12.5 - 1290/.038
        FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

        FJ - 6.3v 3300uF 12.5x20 - 2800/.012
        FM - 6.3v 1000uF 12.5x20 - 2600/.018
        FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

        FJ - 10v 1000uF 8x20 - 1870/.016
        FM - 10v 1000uF 8x20 - 1560/.030
        FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

        FJ - 16v 1000uF 10x20 - 2550/.013
        FM - 16v 1000uF 10x20 - 2180/.019
        FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.

        This is 100% consistant.
        The only time FM is better than FJ (for a given uF/v) is if the FM is in a bigger can.
        - That's not the proper way to compare two series of capacitors.

        So it's just as I said:

        FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ

        .
        .
        Mann-Made Global Warming.
        - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

        -
        Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

        - Dr Seuss
        -
        You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
        -

        Comment


          #19
          Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

          Correcting typo:

          FJ - 6.3v 3300uF 12.5x20 - 2800/.012
          FM - 6.3v 3300uF 12.5x20 - 2600/.018
          FJ has better the Ripple and ESR than FM.
          Mann-Made Global Warming.
          - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

          -
          Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

          - Dr Seuss
          -
          You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
          -

          Comment


            #20
            Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

            Heya PCBONEZ It's just that Ripple and ESR isn't the only things in my mind, FM series has far superior endurance..

            But if we rule out the endurance than you're right. I guess, performance is performance and endurance is endurance. FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ it is. Like you said..

            Any mods there, care to edit my post there? (change it to "FC -> FK -> FM -> FJ")
            I really don't mind, thx in advance.
            days are so short when you actually do something..

            Comment


              #21
              Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

              I can see how you got where you got then.
              I don't consider endurance.

              To me the endurance rating isn't a very practical (realistic) number.
              First they don't test the capacitors to failure so it's an 'at least this long' rating. [not a max] - It says "We can abuse it xxxx many hours and it will still work properly."
              xxxx is CHOSEN by the testers before the test is done and is not determined by the testing. (Which is why they are all in thousands of hours: 1000, 2000, 3000, ..... )
              -
              It does nothing practical towards telling us how long the cap last in a real world environment.
              -
              Yes you can use endurance and do the math to find expected life span but that's almost useless because it's so inaccurate.
              -
              I've forgotten which but one of the major manufactures (good caps brand) gives calculations of life span based on the endurance a "60% level of confidence" (their words.) This is because so many of the inputs to the equation are taken for other equations that give low precision results.
              (Many inaccurate variables gives an even less accurate result.)
              -
              So, even if you do all the math and come up with say 5 years, it doesn't mean the cap will last 5 years. It means it will last somewhere between 3 and 7 years.
              [ 5 years +/- 40%.]
              -
              So lets say we compare a 2000hr [5yr] cap and a 4000hr [10yr] cap.
              5yr + 40% = 7yr
              10yr - 40% = 6yr
              -
              In the real world the 2000hr cap may last longer than a 4000hr cap.

              .
              Mann-Made Global Warming.
              - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

              -
              Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

              - Dr Seuss
              -
              You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
              -

              Comment


                #22
                Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                If the ambient temp is low, may be not more than 45°c, then i may agree.
                In non SMPS or similar low ripple applications may be too.
                When higher temps or ultra low esr caps are used, then i certainly would take the endurance in to account.

                As we have seen early failures of ultra low esr capacitors even with the good brands ( Rubycon MCZ, UCC KZG, KZE and may be KC8`S failed FM ) i would take it seriously.
                Similar is the fact, that even ultra cheap crap capacitors like FuHiyu can last very long, if kept beyond a certain threshold of ambient temperature.
                If not, they degrade very fast (<1 year).

                At least Rubycon is still referring to Rhenius law in their appnote to calculate Endurance. And this is the way, an engineer or designer should have to go.
                In this formula, even the small difference of 1000h @105°c is a significant factor.
                So i would simply call it a failure, to put a ultra low esr cap with 2k endurance into a environment, where the guaranteed endurance will not be sufficient for the projected lifetime of the appliance.
                The above stated generalization 2000h capacitor =5yr is from my point of view not applicable in demanding application.
                Sure, the endurance does not mean, that the capacitor has lost it`s whole function, it depends on the circuit and the margin the designer has left.
                Considering SOHO IT appliances, i am not that confident, if there is some.


                I agree, that it is probably not that realistic to calculate a lifetime based on Rhenius law for more then five years, as this is certainly not proven for any of the recent series.
                And sure, there are some safety margins calculated into the guaranteed endurance. But at least for me it is obviouse, that an Panasonic FC is probably more conservatively rated then a Rubycon MCZ.

                There are some ultra high endurance high volt caps available, it is the Panasonic ED series with 12000h.
                This capacitors are especially recommended for electronic ballasts, where the cap will be placed in the soket of the lamp.

                If endurance would not mater, then i think no manufacturer would pay the hefty price tag they have.
                And i have seen a lot of those CFL flickering or going dim due to dried up Capxon or even Rubycon capacitors well b4 the advertised lifetime of the lamp.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                  I think that if there were a way to determine a -realistic- number for estimated life span it would simply be put in the data tables.

                  I'm not saying Endurance isn't a useful number.
                  I'm saying most people use it the wrong way because they don't understand where it comes from or what it means.

                  All Endurance really says is: "you can abuse it 'at least' 'this long' without breaking it".

                  Unless there is a problem (crap PSU, crap caps present elsewhere on the board, inadequate cooling) in normal use even low Endurance caps will last longer than the useful lifetime of the equipment anyway so for me Endurance is the last (or not even a) consideration when selecting caps.

                  I'm not intending to drag anyone down here.
                  I'm just stating what -I- look at when choosing my own caps.
                  -
                  Endurance might matter in 2 or 3 years but that's about when I'd be upgrading the system anyway. In the mean time what matters is Ripple and ESR. So that's what I care about.

                  You pick your caps and I'll pick mine.
                  Don't worry. Be happy.
                  Live long and prosper. (or something like that)

                  .
                  Mann-Made Global Warming.
                  - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                  -
                  Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                  - Dr Seuss
                  -
                  You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                  -

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                    No problem, it is a free forum in a free country I have no problem with this way of capacitor selection. In fact i do it sometimes the same way .

                    But i think it should always be clear, how and why we come to such rules of thumbs, as there are people, which don`t replace their hardware that frequently like we tech nuts do it.
                    And there are up today many other devices, where SMPS are used, which should last a bit longer or are running extraordinary hot (e.g. TFT`s, AUDIO HIFI, network equipment etc.).

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                      when looking at can size to improve ESR, is diameter more important than height? Or is it necesary to calculate volume and compare it instead?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                        You can only compare caps in the same series that way because of the differences in chemistry and materials between different series.
                        Mann-Made Global Warming.
                        - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                        -
                        Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                        - Dr Seuss
                        -
                        You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                        -

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                          Thanks, PCBONEZ

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                            I've acquired these Sanyo's from some MoBo but I did not find a word about this DX series in Sanyo's old materials at all. However they should be original because there were also WG's...

                            Does somebody have datasheet of these? Can be used in PSU?


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                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                              ^
                              I've never heard of DX series either. WG is mostly all I've dealt with in the Sanyo realm. If they aren't fakes, I don't see why they wouldn't be usable in a PSU secondary......but I tend to think its a bad idea to cannibalize caps from other devices and reuse them. Just get new ones, and never have to worry about it again.
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                                #30
                                Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread

                                I've come across DX before but I never found a data sheet for them.

                                Sanyo sold their lytics interests to the subsidiary that was manufacturing them and who is now their own company.
                                The name is SUN Electronics Industries Corp and the caps are now branded SUNCON.

                                ~ To stress
                                - This is who has been making Sanyo lytics all along.
                                - Only the name on the side of the caps has changed.

                                Have to go there for data sheets now.
                                http://www.sunelec.co.jp
                                http://www.sunelec.co.jp/eng/catalog/catalog02.html
                                .
                                Mann-Made Global Warming.
                                - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                                -
                                Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                                - Dr Seuss
                                -
                                You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                                -

                                Comment

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