A "nice" YoungYear unit?

[bauto601]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

yes that should help, i think 80v might be high enough so you will probably be fine.
there is only one cap on 12v?

Yeah, only one cap and a pi coil.

[Drack]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Ouch poor hdd, he just wanted to have an easy life on the storage business and you are feeding him with ripple

[bauto601]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Well, the rectifier took 1 month to arrive. I replaced the rectifier and powered on the PC. It works great, there is only one minor problem. All the voltage rails are reading a bit high. Especially the 3.3V.

12V: 12.6V real
5V: 5.2V real
3.3V: 3.5V real (all measured with a Fluke mm, and motherboard bios agrees)

I don't think it will cause any problem, i will keep an eye at the voltages. I really don't want to take this whole thing apart for the third time...

[SoporteHR]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Hello Bauto601.

Those voltages are within tolerance, I would not worry about that.

Greetings.

[Drack]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Actually not, 3.465 is the maximum allowed by ATX specs.
12.6 is the maximum allowed so as long as it doesn't go beyond that it should be fine.
I would still recommend not using that PSU, but that's up to you, you could see if the cx430m board fits in the case of the apevia.
Remember to check all the voltages when the PC is at idle and full load (prime95 and furmark)

[momaka]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

It works great, there is only one minor problem. All the voltage rails are reading a bit high. Especially the 3.3V.

Check your multimeter batteries. Some multimeters, when they get low batteries, they tend to show higher voltage.

I don't think it will cause any problem, i will keep an eye at the voltages.

Most likely not, even though some of your voltages are outside of ATX spec. But modern motherboards can cope a little better with voltage variations (especially higher voltages), since most chips are behind some type of voltage regulator (be it buck or linear).

I really don't want to take this whole thing apart for the third time...

Yeah, totally understandable. If there is one thing I don't like to do, it's repeat repairs. Had an LCD monitor like last week - big input filter CapXon cap started going bad (leakage from the bung on one lead.)

Actually not, 3.465 is the maximum allowed by ATX specs.
12.6 is the maximum allowed so as long as it doesn't go beyond that it should be fine.

+1

ATX spec calls for +/-5% on 3.3V, 5V, and 12V rails, IIRC. So that's:
3.135 - 3.465V
4.75 - 5.25V
11.4 - 12.6V

But like I mentioned above, modern motherboards can cope a little easier with voltage variations, especially higher voltages. Back in the days though, some of these rails were used directly to power certain chips. For example, SDRAM was often powered directly from the 3.3V rail and any TTL chips from the 5V rail. So going outside of that specs on voltage (and also ripple) meant potential trouble.

Nowadays, I think only the LPC SIO is powered directly - typically the 5VSB... if not a 3.3V STBY rail generated from the 5VSB. So in any case, most chips have some type of regulator behind them.

The only hardware that is still vulnerable are mechanical HDDs. In particular, their spindle motor is often controlled by a chip+FET combo. When ripple is really high or voltage outside of spec, they tend to run hotter and may shorten the lifespan of the HDD.

[bauto601]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Ok, thanks for your opinions. The final setup is:

AMD Ryzen 3 1200@3.8Ghz 1.3Vcore
Coolermaster ML120L RGB water cooler
2x8GB DDR4 RGB 2666@2933mhz C16 1.35V
Asrock B450M PRO4
Gigabyte RX560 OC 4GB (powerlimit removed)
240GB Kingston SSD

I have added some pictures. I made them with my PotatoCam©™, so in reality it looks much much better than in the pictures. I also did some mods to the pc:

- Case panted black from the inside (looks really good)
- 3D printed bracket to fit 120mm radiator in the 5.25" drive bays
- Added 2 RGB LED strips
- Sleeved ALL the cables
- recapped PSU and replaced 12V rectifier

That was quite a lot of work. If i run Furmark and Intel Burn Test simultaneously, the 12V rail drops from 12.66V to 11.40V, so won't do that again... But with some heavy gaming, the 12V rail stays around 12.0V, so no worries there. The 5V stays solid at 5.12V and the 3.3V rail stays solid at 3.52V. The system runs stable and quiet. The power supply does run a bit warm, but the efficiency of it is horrible of course and it has got a temperature controlled fan which doesn't really help with thermals.

I will see what happens. Currently it is purring like a kitten, but who knows for how long.

EDIT:
The multimeter has just got a new battery. It's an old Fluke 27, the brown brick that could destroy a Nokia without breaking a sweat.

EDIT 2:
I do think the recap and replacement of the 12V rectifier helped. The RX560 with the power limit removed would be drawing around 90 watts with Furmark i think since it is an overclocked version with the power limit removed. Heck, the Asus RX560 OC model (with the same clocks) showed 100W with Furmark, where it's power limit is located. Also the Sapphire RX 560 OC model draws 100W or even more with Furmark. HWmonitor also showed the CPU drawing around 85W with Intel Burn Test. So that is already 175W. Add the fans, SSD, RGB lights, motherboard, VRM efficiency and water pump and i think it would be drawing about 190W. So that already is 16A at the 12V rail. In the review at JonnyGuru, the 12V rail already dropped to 10.7V with a 16A load and that's probably with a bigger load on the 5V rail.

[ChaosLegionnaire]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

That was quite a lot of work. If i run Furmark and Intel Burn Test simultaneously, the 12V rail drops from 12.66V to 11.40V, so won't do that again... But with some heavy gaming, the 12V rail stays around 12.0V, so no worries there. The 5V stays solid at 5.12V and the 3.3V rail stays solid at 3.52V.

this is typical of those old-design group regulated psus. u have to load both the 5v and 12v rail equally for the voltages to stay in spec. if u load the 12v heavily, the 12v rail will sag and the minor rails will go high.

so to solve this, either decrease the resistance and increase the wattage of the load resistors on the minor rails or add some dummy lightbulb load on the 5v rail to force the 12v rail voltage to go up.

if it was too much work for u, then perhaps u should have just bought a more modern independantly regulated designed psu and be done with it lol...

[bauto601]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

this is typical of those old-design group regulated psus. u have to load both the 5v and 12v rail equally for the voltages to stay in spec. if u load the 12v heavily, the 12v rail will sag and the minor rails will go high.

so to solve this, either decrease the resistance and increase the wattage of the load resistors on the minor rails or add some dummy lightbulb load on the 5v rail to force the 12v rail voltage to go up.

if it was too much work for u, then perhaps u should have just bought a more modern independantly regulated designed psu and be done with it lol...

Well, it wasn't too much work. Most of the work was spray painting the case, sleeving the cables, 3D printing and so on...

I don't think that increasing the load on the 5V rail really helps in this case. It will only cause the 12V and 3.3V rail to increase further. I think that adding a load resistor to the 3.3V would be the best option. The 12V rail stays (even with a drop to 11.4V) inside the ATX specifications. Only the 3.3V rail is a problem.

Ideally i would open up the power supply and start tinkering with the resistors in the feedback circuit. Increasing the 5V feedback resistor value and adding an extra resistor from the 12V rail to the feedback pin of the microcontroller to make it react to the changing 12V rail. But also then, the 3.3V rail would probably go through the roof if it wants to maintain 12V on the 12V rail.

It's just weird that the 3.3V/5V ratio is off. The 5V rail at 5.1V isn't that bad, and it keeps that voltage rock solid. The 3.3V rail is too high but drops back a bit (with like 0.05V) under load and the 12V rail drops about 0.5V with a reasonable load.

Oh well, that's part of the deal when dealing with crap psu's i guess.

[momaka]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

I don't think that increasing the load on the 5V rail really helps in this case. It will only cause the 12V and 3.3V rail to increase further. I think that adding a load resistor to the 3.3V would be the best option. The 12V rail stays (even with a drop to 11.4V) inside the ATX specifications. Only the 3.3V rail is a problem.

The 3.3V rail shouldn't increase or decrease too much - it is independently regulated with a mag-amp circuit from the 5V rail.

Ideally i would open up the power supply and start tinkering with the resistors in the feedback circuit. Increasing the 5V feedback resistor value and adding an extra resistor from the 12V rail to the feedback pin of the microcontroller to make it react to the changing 12V rail. But also then, the 3.3V rail would probably go through the roof if it wants to maintain 12V on the 12V rail.

No! Don't touch those resistors. You will likely end up screwing the compensation circuit, which could result in wild oscillations and even destruction of the PS. The only thing you can do on some of these old half-bridge PSUs is either increase or decrease the 5V and 12V rail together. The 3.3V rail, as I mentioned, is regulated by a mag-amp and you can change that in a different way.

It's just weird that the 3.3V/5V ratio is off.

To tweak the 3.3V rail, find the 431 shunt that is responsible for regulating the 3.3V rail mag-amp circuit. Some designs may use a small electrolytic cap (0.47 to 2.2 uF) for the compensation network of this shunt. If that small cap has gone bad, this could well be the reason why the 3.3V rail is high all the time. If not, then most likely Apevia just didn't pick the best resistor values for the divider responsible for setting up the 3.3V rail voltage - in which case, you'll just need to tweak the value of the lower resistor in that network (making it higher will drop the 3.3V rail).

this is typical of those old-design group regulated psus. u have to load both the 5v and 12v rail equally for the voltages to stay in spec. if u load the 12v heavily, the 12v rail will sag and the minor rails will go high.

Yes, the "old" group-regulated PSUs usually use one set of windings for both the 5V and 12V rail (the 5V rail is simply a tap taken "earlier" before the 12V rail). Hence the reason why these PSUs cross-load fairly easily and typically prefer either only 5V or 12V heavy PCs, depending on which the PSU was designed for.

On newer group-regulated designs, the 12V rail is simply generated by adding a 7V rail (though a winding on the main transformer that is separate from the 5V rail) on top of the already-rectified 5V rail. Thus, loading the 12V rail also loads the 5V rail with the same current automatically. This reduces the efficiency slightly when using a 12V load, because both the 5V and 12V rectifiers get loaded. But it results in better regulation. Of course, if the output rectifiers are over-specced appropriately, the efficiency wouldn't suffer as much.

so to solve this, either decrease the resistance and increase the wattage of the load resistors on the minor rails

That wouldn't work.

or add some dummy lightbulb load on the 5v rail to force the 12v rail voltage to go up.

That will like cause an even higher 12V rail when the PC is idle, so probably not appropriate either.

Truth is, there actually isn't much of a solution for this. Old PSUs like this simply just aren't made for a heavy 12V load. With a heavy 5V-load, they seem to do a little better.

if it was too much work for u, then perhaps u should have just bought a more modern independantly regulated designed psu and be done with it lol...

Yes.
But part of the problem is that this power supply is much shorter than a standard ATX PSU: only 7" long... or short, depending on how you want to look at it (insert inappropriate jokes here )

I have added some pictures. I made them with my PotatoCam©™, so in reality it looks much much better than in the pictures.

IDK, looks pretty good to me already. Nice light mods you got on there.
(And LOL @ PotatoCam©™ )

- 3D printed bracket to fit 120mm radiator in the 5.25" drive bays

You mean foam wouldn't have been good enough?
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...9&d=1544304344
(Picture by Drack, found in this post )

That was quite a lot of work. If i run Furmark and Intel Burn Test simultaneously, the 12V rail drops from 12.66V to 11.40V, so won't do that again...

That's funny - all the way from one end of the ATX spec allowance to the other. Kind of scary too, IMO. At least I certainly wouldn't keep that setup like that.

But with some heavy gaming, the 12V rail stays around 12.0V, so no worries there. The 5V stays solid at 5.12V and the 3.3V rail stays solid at 3.52V. The system runs stable and quiet.

That sounds a little better. Then again, games don't always stress the system as much as those synthetic benchmarks do. So that's expected.

The power supply does run a bit warm, but the efficiency of it is horrible of course and it has got a temperature controlled fan which doesn't really help with thermals.

It would be interesting to check how much power the PSU is drawing from the wall. Then we might be able to have a better idea of the efficiency. Though being a 2nd tier half-bridge PSU, I don't imagine the efficiency being better than 75%. Probably around 70% most of the time. So with your load of around 190 Watts max, that would mean there's about 60-80 Watts of heat generated inside the PSU, which is somewhat considerable. If the PSU's fans are hardly turning, it might be a good idea to modify the fan circuit... though that means you'll have to take apart the PSU again , which I understand is something you don't want to do. So maybe just leave it as is and keep us posted, say, what happens to this system a year from now or two (if you intend to stay on Badcaps.net that long, of course.)

I will see what happens. Currently it is purring like a kitten, but who knows for how long.

Well, life is no fun without some risks and shenanigans. If the PSU goes *kaboom* , at least you will have a good story to tell.

I do think the recap and replacement of the 12V rectifier helped.

Yes, it most certainly did. With the old rectifier, the 12V rail would have probably dipped even much lower, just like on that JG review.

[bauto601]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

The 3.3V rail shouldn't increase or decrease too much - it is independently regulated with a mag-amp circuit from the 5V rail.

Hmm, okay. I did not know that.

No! Don't touch those resistors. You will likely end up screwing the compensation circuit, which could result in wild oscillations and even destruction of the PS. The only thing you can do on some of these old half-bridge PSUs is either increase or decrease the 5V and 12V rail together. The 3.3V rail, as I mentioned, is regulated by a mag-amp and you can change that in a different way.

Yes i know that the rails are tied together. But i rather have some more swing on the 5V rail to compensate for the 12V rail. I've also modded a Linkworld power supply for my 3D printer to output 18V instead of 12V. I've also did that by fiddling with the feedback resistors. That unit runs quite happily for more than a year now. But oscillation is something i want to avoid, and for the relative small gains it gives i will leave it as-is since the pro's don't outweight the con's in this occasion.

To tweak the 3.3V rail, find the 431 shunt that is responsible for regulating the 3.3V rail mag-amp circuit. Some designs may use a small electrolytic cap (0.47 to 2.2 uF) for the compensation network of this shunt. If that small cap has gone bad, this could well be the reason why the 3.3V rail is high all the time. If not, then most likely Apevia just didn't pick the best resistor values for the divider responsible for setting up the 3.3V rail voltage - in which case, you'll just need to tweak the value of the lower resistor in that network (making it higher will drop the 3.3V rail).

Will look into that, currently i am not going to open it again but when i upgrade the system to Zen 2 / Navi i already have to take the system apart and then i can open up the power supply as well again.


Yes, the "old" group-regulated PSUs usually use one set of windings for both the 5V and 12V rail (the 5V rail is simply a tap taken "earlier" before the 12V rail). Hence the reason why these PSUs cross-load fairly easily and typically prefer either only 5V or 12V heavy PCs, depending on which the PSU was designed for.

On newer group-regulated designs, the 12V rail is simply generated by adding a 7V rail (though a winding on the main transformer that is separate from the 5V rail) on top of the already-rectified 5V rail. Thus, loading the 12V rail also loads the 5V rail with the same current automatically. This reduces the efficiency slightly when using a 12V load, because both the 5V and 12V rectifiers get loaded. But it results in better regulation. Of course, if the output rectifiers are over-specced appropriately, the efficiency wouldn't suffer as much.

That is some clever thinking of the PSU manufacturers. Unfortunately, Young-Year works with monkey engineers.


That will like cause an even higher 12V rail when the PC is idle, so probably not appropriate either.

Truth is, there actually isn't much of a solution for this. Old PSUs like this simply just aren't made for a heavy 12V load. With a heavy 5V-load, they seem to do a little better.

Yes, the only thing i can do is try to make the 12V better. But by adding a feedback resistor from the 12V rail, idle 12V should be better but the 5V rail would drop a bit. Under load, 5V would be higher and the 12V shouldn't dip too as much. But then again, risky operation.


Yes.
But part of the problem is that this power supply is much shorter than a standard ATX PSU: only 7" long... or short, depending on how you want to look at it (insert inappropriate jokes here )

No comment.


IDK, looks pretty good to me already. Nice light mods you got on there.
(And LOL @ PotatoCam©™ )

Yeah, i really like this case now. The hardware/case combo with LED's is just right. Especially when you know it's a budget build.

You mean foam wouldn't have been good enough?
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...9&d=1544304344
(Picture by Drack, found in this post )

Aww, dang it. Should have done that instead.

That's funny - all the way from one end of the ATX spec allowance to the other. Kind of scary too, IMO. At least I certainly wouldn't keep that setup like that.

Young-Year really set this up to run inside the ATX specs.

That sounds a little better. Then again, games don't always stress the system as much as those synthetic benchmarks do. So that's expected.


It would be interesting to check how much power the PSU is drawing from the wall. Then we might be able to have a better idea of the efficiency. Though being a 2nd tier half-bridge PSU, I don't imagine the efficiency being better than 75%. Probably around 70% most of the time. So with your load of around 190 Watts max, that would mean there's about 60-80 Watts of heat generated inside the PSU, which is somewhat considerable. If the PSU's fans are hardly turning, it might be a good idea to modify the fan circuit... though that means you'll have to take apart the PSU again , which I understand is something you don't want to do. So maybe just leave it as is and keep us posted, say, what happens to this system a year from now or two (if you intend to stay on Badcaps.net that long, of course.)

Of course i will stay on Badcaps, i'm mostly reading here. But sometimes i need some insights from people who know much more about ATX PSU's than i do. Will keep you updated, altough no news is good news. Will also do a power measurement when i have time to buy a meter and test it.


Well, life is no fun without some risks and shenanigans. If the PSU goes *kaboom* , at least you will have a good story to tell.

It will definately bring a new dimension to Battlefield or GTA.


Yes, it most certainly did. With the old rectifier, the 12V rail would have probably dipped even much lower, just like on that JG review.

I'm really happy with how it performs now. I expected it half to blow up or really go big way out of spec. It's running hot so a fan mod has to be done when it gets opened up again. But for now, i am satisfied by the Young-Year monkytech. I also got an Owon DSO oscilloscope, so maybe i can do some ripple measurements? Or will the PC itself as a load cause too much ripple to get an idea of what the ripple level would be? There is also a part on my mind that says "Don't measure it, you don't want to know it." since it works fine.

__

[bauto601]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Status update. The PSU still working, altough it runs a little hot. The case temp rises up to 35 degrees while gaming and the PSU intake is right above the graphics card so that doesn't help it either. The system runs rock solid and produces some decent fps numbers in BeamNG drive and Forza Motorsport 7. I'm even starting to trust this unit now. And it runs quiet, which i also didn't expect.

[momaka]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

I'm even starting to trust this unit now.

It's OK to trust it. Just watch out if you get any brown-outs.
Many cheaper half-bridge PSUs can't deal too well with low line voltages and can sometimes blow up... possibly taking out something in the process too.

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

It's OK to trust it. Just watch out if you get any brown-outs.
Many cheaper half-bridge PSUs can't deal too well with low line voltages and can sometimes blow up... possibly taking out something in the process too.

Over in the U.S., Canada and Mexico, do you think that 113V and the like would make many cheap PSUs blow?

I start worrying when I see my circuit drop to 118 V or the like, meaning that it's likely saturated and thus a circuit breaker trip around the corner...

[momaka]

Re: A "nice" YoungYear unit?

Over in the U.S., Canada and Mexico, do you think that 113V and the like would make many cheap PSUs blow?

No.
Usually 80-100V is where they may start to drop out of regulation. The cheap nasty h-bridgers will try to work regardless, which is the sad part. One I tested at very low line voltage on purpose (probably around 55V). It output about 1-4V on the major rails without shutting down. Clearly it should have shut down. But it kept trying.
Most aren't like that, though, and will typically reach saturation on the driver transformer, buzz, and then shut down gracefully.