PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

[sokos]

Hi guys from sunny Greece,
Some good friends start a small netcafe business with 40 PC's for LAN gaming and I have to help them choose a tidy case and a PSU.

Right now we are stuck on the CPU choise, since AMD 3700+ is same money as the Intel D930, but graphic cards will be Gainward 7900GT's. They will have only 1 HDD, 2x12cm fans and no DVDs. What PSU would you propose ?

I guess something that has PCIex output cable, since the 7900 wants that power cable. I dont want to spend a fortune but either get crappy PSU's that after few months they ll be noisy or blow. Last one I saw and price was bit over my budget was the Enermax Liberty 400W, looks sweet.

Any ideas or suggestions are very very welcome!

[tiresias]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Hi guys from sunny Greece,
Some good friends start a small netcafe business with 40 PC's for LAN gaming and I have to help them choose a tidy case and a PSU.

Right now we are stuck on the CPU choise, since AMD 3700+ is same money as the Intel D930, but graphic cards will be Gainward 7900GT's. They will have only 1 HDD, 2x12cm fans and no DVDs. What PSU would you propose ?

I guess something that has PCIex output cable, since the 7900 wants that power cable. I dont want to spend a fortune but either get crappy PSU's that after few months they ll be noisy or blow. Last one I saw and price was bit over my budget was the Enermax Liberty 400W, looks sweet.

Any ideas or suggestions are very very welcome!

Welcome sokos! Another Athenian on the board

CPU choice is a tricky one, as always. Certainly if you were running multithreaded applications/encoding/etc. - the Pentium D would be close to twice as fast as the Athlon, so there would no contest there.

Most games, however, are single threaded - and one AMD K8 core at 2.2GHz will definitely be faster than one intel Presler core at 3.0GHz. The AMD does also use somewhat less power, which may be a consideration if you have many such machines running. Certainly if you choose to opt for the Pentium, see if you can get hold of the C1 stepping CPU's which are more energy efficient and cooler.

As far as PSUs are concerned - there's also availability to be considered, and I'm not sure what's available in your area - nonetheless, take a look at the models by Fortron/Source (FSP), they tend to be quite reliable and among the most affordable of the decent brands.

[willawake]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

well in greece we have FSP, Zalman, Chieftec, Tagan, Thermaltake, Acbel, Akasa, Antec, HEC, Hiper, Enermax

i am not familiar with Enermax but if Trodas is happy with his then that says something.........i would second a vote for FSP also but i havent seen the new active psus here yet.

certainly i would recommend to avoid any psu with poor airflow. in the noisy atmosphere of a netcafe quiet will not be a consideration so it will be best to have cooling maxed out to prolong life of components.

what i would recommend though is not to have all computers exactly the same. because then if you have some product failing it will be a big problem. of course you will have to decide on the basis of the convenience of maintaining as few ghost images of the pcs as possible. psus though are not an issue for that, so it would be easy to have groups of different psus for the builds.

[sokos]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

thanks tiresias and my fellow-athenian willawake for your warm welcome.

I still havent found the Fortron with Active PFC
Do I need a PSU with a PCIex cable, or can I use any PSU and add myself a MOLEX->PCIex convertor ?

(the Enermax Liberty 400W costs around 75e in Athens)

[hkivan]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

For the CPUs, if they have similar performance, choose
the one with lower power consumption so as to reduce
running cost in the long run. I think the guys whos come
to play in your cafe don't mind if the CPUs are AMD or
intel provided they are fast enough.

You don't need to buy those expensive modular PSUs.
People won't appreciate the beautiful PSU
inside the case. You may try some high efficiency units,
e.g. , FSP400-60GLN, seasonic SS-400HT, Antec NeoHE.
I don't know the prices in Greece but saving those
bells and whistles for better quality parts.

[Galvanized]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Spoken like a man with experience, I like Will's idea of not using one brand. Use 20 each of different boards & PSUs, then mix them for 4 types of set-ups.

The AX & ATX Fortrons have had some unflattering reports. The others are VG. I believe Akasa is built by Fortron/Source and know Zalman is. Enermax rates very high. Tagan seems to do well w/o many issues. The others Will listed I'm not sure of. I do know the Hipers that use modular connects are not to my liking, in that the 6pin uses 3 pins at the modular connector and the 4pin uses 2. High resistance just waiting to happen as the modular pins are quite small.

This may sound like work in the short term but might be a consideration. Filtered air intake on the left side covers. I bet this LAN Cafe will be filled with ppl that are smoking like they are incipient=ready to burst into flames. Cheap cases that are built well with an 80mm exhaust, them cut the side covers for a 120x25@80cfm and place it for 50% of the air on the graphics card. A filter of home ac material works very well because it has depth for filtering vs a screen, that niether filter well and clogs very fast. Once a week just use abother bit of cheap home ac filter. There are many ways to fix/attach it. A sheet metal shop could knock out the fan holes quick & cheap.

OH! Wellcome sokos.

[yanz]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

i & my friends have a netcafe. i see you have received plenty of usefull suggestion from the other members here.

we have upgraded some of the systems from amd 1700+ ecs to a64 3000 + epox 8gf6100-m (onboard video) recently. the psus now are known good brand like hec, acbell, and thermaltake (old tech 480w) with active psu. we have no protection at all for the power line like power conditioner,ac filter, ups etc, so it's funny to see the sistem with cheap psu (no apfc) restarted/shutdown when power surge/dip occurs while the new systems still continue running. it clearly give us the picture of what the advantge of psus with apfc really are.

also we noticed that the new sistems run cooler than the axp/celeron rigs we have.

we use cheap but good looking case, modifed it for better airflow, using minimal case fans, cheap used cdrom, and also cheap used hardisk ( dont imagine the capacity, lol. they're ancient).

no real advice from me just want to share my experience. btw welcome!

[sokos]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

very very warm welcome Hi, galvanized

Ok, this is the case I ve decided that I ll get for the PC's:
http://www.aplus-case.de/pages/produ...r_silver.html#
http://www.aplus-case.de/pages/produ...er_detail.html

It's not very pricey (41euros) without a PSU, and has a 12cm fan in the front. I got one as of this moment for testing, so if you wont I can break it into pieces and make photos for you. For sure i need to buy an extra 12cm fan for the rear, but what brand? It must not be very loud, right?

What do you mean buy adding a 80mm fan? At the side hole for blowing extra air in the VGA or the PSU? (coz as you see this case has ventilation holes for both the VGA and the CPU)


What material could I use as filter?
I ve heard girls stockings work good!

[jonnyGURU]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Anywhere over there where you could buy Sytrin or Masscool?

OVer here, their 460W is only $69.99. It has active PFC and efficiency > 80%.

So it suits all of your needs: Good quality, low cost, APFC (a requirement for EU, correct?) and good efficiency so all of these machines running around the clock won't make your meter spin out of control.

[Galvanized]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Hi sokos,
This board is dedicated to badcaps and heat being a real catalyst for componet life should get real consideration. What I offer is just my opinion as my hands on comp building experience is just 6 years in the doing as a home builer...I'm not in the business.

Filtering medium in general: Screens and stockings offer a barrier, for home use in an A/Ced room I guess they offer something. I take home A/C filter material and cut it to size. It's very good for our use because it offers depth to the filtering medium. An 18x24" filter can be had in The States for $2. The medium is spun fiberglass that's 1/4"~1/2" thick and will not clog very fast if at all. Works great and it's cheap

Considerations of the linked case: The front panel is vented very well by the screening covering the lower front and the small cut outs/vent holes on the sides of the panel. A bit of 3/8" galvanized screen could be used to cover the intake fan's opening(under the panel at case front). The edges of which would be bent at 90 degrees to hold the A/C filter material. If cut slightly oversized it will retain itself.
Since you will be using only one HDD, mount it in the upper cage. Remove the lower side-saddle 3.5" cage because it totaly blocks intake air. I would save them but not use'em. For an intake fan, consider 120x38s or 120x25s at 90cfm. After 90cfm 120x25s will be intrusive to most. When looking at fans consider the spec on mm of h2o pulled because this is an important consideration for filtered fans. This home A/C material will reduce fan output by about 10% but it will also kill noise to a noticable degree. I bring up noise because 40 rigs in one room might be a bit much for my old ears :-)
No matter what you do with the intake, a high output 120 at the rear might rob a PSU with a 120 fan of needed cooling air. I've seen it posted and jonny has seen it first hand, where a case running high negative pressure has reversed PSU air flow. Remember, the 120 in a PSU is driving air over&through componets, then out a mesh screen=resistance. The case exhaust is running in free air with little resistance. Who do you think would win this tug-of-war?
Intel speced the side vents over the PCI slots, they depend on negative case pressure for air to enter. I've read where guys block off the side vents with a bit of taped cardboard on the inside of the panel, then remove two PCI slot covers for exausting air in this area for graphics card cooling. This has given noticable improvement for some.
Do not forget the PSU is a case exhaust fan. PSUs with an 80mm fan generally have fans that drive 40~48cfm. PSUs with 120s generally drive 60~85cfm. So I would use a low flow case exhaust fan and depend on a good filtered intake for decent cooling and low maintenance=using alot less canned air. Heavy dust build up is like wearing a sweater/jumper in July.

A fella I know in India has a polymer factory, a very dirty enviroment. His comp needed cleaning every two weeks or it would overheat & crash. I sent him this link, he made one & is very pleased. Not that you need this type of filtration but just to show you the lengths some will have to go to get clean air. http://www.overclockers.com/tips1092/ I know of a Hillbilly, (by his own declaration) that screened the outside of a set-up like this, then placed it under his house to get the 10oC cooler air from the crawl space. The point is that there is a number of ways to skin the cat. Do note how the automotive type filters are pleated. This offers more area but also causes the heavy particles to lodge at the bottom of the V, inertia does this.

I know a number of places State-side of The Pond to get VG but cheap fans but Greece is another matter. I posted in tiresias' wanted to buy thread about fans. I linked a good fan spec site there. It might be worth a look.

Good luck on this project, I'll follow this thread.

[willawake]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Anywhere over there where you could buy Sytrin or Masscool?

nope, no enhance or pcp&c (Hi JediYoga!) either

APFC (a requirement for EU, correct?)

PFC is a requirement for EU, whether passive or active it is ok.

Regarding UPS systems, i would recommend it. gamers are not going to be happy when the power cuts out for a few seconds and they lose their progress. indeed in the competitive market of Greek netcafes, it will be the little things like that which will show your business to be the best. you could get some APC 1500VA and share them between several computers.

I would also recommend to get a good electrician to make sure the mains power panel is installed good and will support so many machines.

Regarding fans, i would recommend to get ball bearing which last longer, there is many sleeve bearing on the market. replacing 40 or even 80 fans early would be a significant cost.

i am not enthusiastic about the current psu offerings here in the around 80 euro range. In active there is :

Tagan TG420-U01 - 75 euro
Enermax Liberty 400w - 77 euro
Tagan TG430-U22 - 78 euro
Enermax EG465AX-VE Noisetaker - 79 euro
Thermaltake Purepower 460w - 80 euro

Thermaltake i would disqualify because of 1 year guarantee as opposed to the 3 years of the others. Zalman is in the over 100 euro category, Fortron is only presenting for active pfc their 650w here atm at 140 euro, no epsilon yet. Forton bluestorm 400w is 79 euro but not active so although it is a great psu the competing active are preferable. Seasonic, Silverstone, Hiper again too expensive. HEC are nice build but the cooling is poor. I have no problem with Enermax or Tagan. anybody else?

although it is nice to select the best parts from different shops and personally i am one to do that. the best idea would be to put the whole deal through one shop which looks to be around for many more years and choose from what is available from what their best distributors offer, choosing the quality parts with the longest warranty. then you have a good beginning for the best relationship when you have some problem or want best warranty service, ie you want a hard disk replacement now and let them deal with whatever lengthy procedure they need to go with at the distributor or manufacturer themselves in their own time. not recommended to deal with the big chains who wont really give a shit.

the case looks fine, inside it looks so similar to the turbo-x DU09AL that i wonder if they have the same oem, decent cases anyway although not very robust, if the front fan is included then it will probably be low quality sleeve bearing. for bulletproof cases i recommend the chieftec although i believe none have a 120mm front fan although some have 120mm rear.

I bet this LAN Cafe will be filled with ppl that are smoking like they are incipient=ready to burst into flames.

have you ever been to Greece?.......welcome to smokingland! love it!!!

where is this cafe going to be? can we see some pics when it is done?

anyway welcome to badcaps sokos!!! , i think you are only the second Greek to visit unfortunately, tell your friends

[sokos]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

thanks thanks guys, here come the photographs, it's not ready yet but here is how it is going right now. Offcourse when it's finished you guys come and I kernao (treat you) coffee

Here you can see the electrician guy did a work of art for the panel.
http://www.gigabytes.gr/pinakas.jpg
http://www.gigabytes.gr/pinakas2.jpg

Here is how the shop looks inside:
http://www.gigabytes.gr/magazi.jpg


And here is some pics for my friend Galvanized, please if you could do some drawings on the pics so I understand better what u propose
http://www.gigabytes.gr/case.jpg
http://www.gigabytes.gr/case2.jpg


Yes there will be crazy smoking I guess but a. a very strong air circulation/cleaning machine has been installed (might suck you up too if you go too close ) and b. i ll try to divide smoking with non-smoking areas, coz some ppl or kids shouldn't breath it.

[Galvanized]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Most smoke cleaning machines will scrub the air very well and you may not want/need case air filtration. A friend(15 years ago) had such a machine in his bar, it used water and had to be cleaned once a week. If he let it go longer than two weeks, the mess of cleaning it was disgusting.
(Easy smokers, I enjoy two cee-gars a week)

I'm not an artist, I just draw fies It depends on the CPU coolers you will use but a fan can be used on the ducted side cover to feed the CPU. It looks to be 92mm. With two intake fans the balance between intake and exhaust will be very good.

Will is right about ball bearing fans out living sleeve type. If the stock front fan is a low flow,<50cfm, move it to the rear and use a better for intake duty. On the rear it will be easyer to change out when the need arises.

Willawake, never been to Greece but had a house guest here on holiday for a month awhile back. I heard the stories about smoke filled rooms Her biggest complaint about smoke was the airport at Milano. She is a smoker and had to go outside for fresh air

[willawake]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

well last time i passed through fiumicino i was rushing to the right terminal for the flight.....unfortunately when i got there i found i would have to take the monorail all the way back to terminal 1 for a smoke......

[gonzo0815]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

I suggest some Amacrox Frei Erde PSu`S, the PCB & Desing are from Fortron (but i do't know from which series, the PCB`s are labled GLY), the caps are all CapXon. They are all A-PFC and very efficient like the Seasonic S12 series. I have bought 3 of them (the 500w units) for about 80€/each in Germany. The 400w units are priced at 60 to 70€.
I think the AX440-60GLN should be sufficient for those systems.
The Seasonic S12 Series are in my opionion good units too.
may be the oem Ft or HT models are suitable for you, they are very cheap.
On the cheap ones i recomend the FSP350-60THA-P, which is availiable from ebay for about 15 to 20€.
But they have only one 80mm fan. Those units are oem for Fujitsu-Siemens Systems.

[willawake]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

macrox Frei Erde PSu`S

they are not available here. from the german brands we have Be Quiet instead. i dont know the quality.

we have also LC-Power as well. seasonic are 100 euro+

the shop looks great from the photos and the mains distribution panel looks really good. it must be exciting getting a new business ready. i hope it will be a success.

[Chris1992]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

>I believe Akasa is built by Fortron/Source
Wrong. They're built by Enhance.

[willawake]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

ok then we do have Enhance here under disguise of Akasa and Silverstone

[sokos]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

Update: Ordered today 21 pcs of the Enermax Liberty 400W (that's all they had in stock)
for 75e each including VAT. Now I m short of another 24 PSU's and cash offcourse

I m thinking for the rest of the machines to get something cheaper like this Heroichi Windmill 385 (even though it doesnt have a PCIex cable i need for the 7900GT)

http://www.hecgroupusa.com/product/57
http://www.techniz.co.uk/modules.php...content&id=138

Although I dont know if it will be sufficient and if is is Active PFC .
your thoughts ?

[Galvanized]

Re: PSU's for a LANparty/Gaming Netcafe

With that many rigs in one location, I would think aPFC should get serious consideration. It would keep the mains cleaner.

Your linked PSU is kind of weak on the 12V for gaming. The 400W Liberty is 30A on the 12V combined and would be more than enough. The HEC is stronger on the 3.3 & 5V than the 12V. I would look for units that are stronger on the 12V than the others rails.

My bad. Akasa PSUs are OEMed by Enhance, thier quiet Amber fans are OEMed by YS Tech and the Eclipse 62 case by GlobalWin.
I found that out because that case has my eye.

If you were in The States, I'd recommend looking at the Enhance units at eWiz.com.