Something is short on my van, but what?

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

which goes back to my comment about underhood plastic crap.

every kid puts a K&N filter on the throttle body,
car maker want to put a hose running to a bog box just because they hate to use a part that is standard rather than something custom to them.

When you are dealing with high volume products -- or high COST products -- there is an entirely different calculus that goes into your (design) decisions.

If I can save a few dollars by having a special jig/adapter/tool designed to build/test/repair a device, I'll have the tool designed and absorb the cost for (having someone) do that design.

Likewise, if I need a special part made to accommodate some aspect of the design, there's no reason NOT to specify it -- and count on one of my suppliers to provide it for a price that is just above their cost.

If the end user is inconvenienced by this (or price-gouged), a secondary market will appear that will address his needs at a price that THEY feel the user will bear.

The worst possible market is low volume, high cost, low price. There, you can't be too cavalier about what you do.

I interviewed a bunch of visually impaired individuals some time ago regarding design criteria for products targeting their market. One guy made a comment: "Don't make it look blind!" I had no idea what he meant so asked him to explain.

His complaint was that most products for him were pretty blah in appearance. Nothing beyond "functional". He took it as insulting -- as if the manufacturers (all of them!) were saying, "Hey, you can't see it -- what do YOU care what it looks like?"). "Why can't we/I have 'sexy' products with sleek curves, etc.? This (pointing to a device that he was using) SCREAMS 'This guy is blind!'"

I pointed out that the manufacturers had, undoubtedly, used off-the-shelf enclosures -- possibly painted or adorned with stickers -- to save on the cost of having a custom enclosure designed and fabricated for THAT product.

"Well, they do it for SIGHTED products, so why not ours?"

"Cuz they sell a shitload higher quantity into the sighted market than they do for yours! They can absorb the tens of kilobucks that it costs for that ONE mold in the cost of making tens or hundreds of thousands of units. They MIGHT sell a few thousand for YOUR market. And, likely have to spend time and money arguing with insurers who don't want to cover the complete cost of the product..."

[stj]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

which goes back to my comment about underhood plastic crap.

every kid puts a K&N filter on the throttle body,
car maker want to put a hose running to a bog box just because they hate to use a part that is standard rather than something custom to them.
i'm refering to air-filters that clamp to a round neck with that comment.

they often also draw air into those boxes through a downpipe into the wheel-well.
so when you hydrolock your engine driving through a deep puddle - remember this post!

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

so do some SUV's.

There are several US vehicles that hide the battery in places other than "under the hood". But, the do so NOT to put it in a less hot environment but, rather, because there is a growing space shortage under the hood, nowadays.

One vehicle hides the battery behind the driver side wheel well in a little compartment.

[CapLeaker]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

so the solution is to return to what Jaguar and Rover used to do and fit a sealed battery box in the trunk.
most custom/performance shops sell battery boxes for this purpose.

btw, in europe most vans and the PT-cruiser all mount the battery under the seat inside the cabin.

so do some SUV's.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Now that I can totally agree with - I hated that in the UK, going for days or even weeks without ever seeing the sun, and days in the winter when it can't even be arsed to come light properly!

Anyone who is a "transplant" to this region has the same things to say regarding the lack of that "dreary overcast" that is so common, elsewhere. It has (had!) a pronounced affect on your mental outlook -- even if you didn't notice it, at the time (because *it* was "Normal").

And, none of those days where it just drizzles for 10 hours; if you're gong to rain, then RAIN!

Amusingly, when I first moved here, I thought most folks "daft" as they'd drop everything and WATCH it rain. "Sheesh! It's JUST RAIN!!" The idea of watching it rain YET AGAIN in most other places is just silly. But, here, it truly is a joyous experience. And, folks don't cringe indoors from the rain (of course, it isn't a cold, "damp" rain, either!) but welcome it.

We also get a few 'non-sunny' days a year here, but they are not dark and overcast - just high cloud.

We will have thick clod cover during Monsoon season, at times. But, this usually evolves into a "good" rain and then clears.

If we have several days with heavy cloud cover that DON'T produce rain, then folks tend to get irritable.

Our climate is not as hot as yours, yes we get days over 100F (35C) but only when it is a heatwave. Our average temperature only varies by about 6C (10F) midwinter to midsummer and interestingly also varies by about 6C (10F) daily high to nighttime low.

We'll see ~20 days above 100F in September, alone. And, this is when things are cooling off! Every day in August was above 105F, 8 of those above 110F. Five days in July BELOW 100F but 20 above 105 (113 being the highest that month). June was roughly the same -- though the high was only 111. Our first 100F day was in April...

Would you call that warm climate or hot climate?

Personally, I'd probably say "mild". You're hi-lo variations over the course of a day are pretty small -- 15F? No dount a consequence of the ocean's thermal mass. We typically see twice that (e.g., it is 71F at ~5A and we'll probably be 100F later today as it's starting to cool down). It is not uncommon for it to be 80-90F at midnight. I've never seen a winter night colder than 15F degrees -- and that was a fluke (we typically only have ~5 nights below freezing, annually -- maybe 28F -- and only for short periods of time). Winter daytime highs will be 70-80F.

[dicky96]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

What I "don't miss" are the grey, overcast skies (we have a handful of "not sunny" days each year) and the absence of true darkness at night.

Now that I can totally agree with - I hated that in the UK, going for days or even weeks without ever seeing the sun, and days in the winter when it can't even be arsed to come light properly!

We also get a few 'non-sunny' days a year here, but they are not dark and overcast - just high cloud.

Our climate is not as hot as yours, yes we get days over 100F (35C) but only when it is a heatwave. Our average temperature only varies by about 6C (10F) midwinter to midsummer and interestingly also varies by about 6C (10F) daily high to nighttime low.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/es/pl...1617?year=2020

https://www.holiday-weather.com/play...gles/averages/

Would you call that warm climate or hot climate?

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Kind of funny that any studies, if there are any, aren't put to good use. I know that there are data centers that swap out battery packs every two years to ensure they don't get a failure during a power outage even if they never experience one. If there truly were studies that clearly indicate life extension by dilution to get batteries that guarantee life consistency for 5 years (ignoring the 20 years some people have gotten at AT&T during their testing), wouldn't that be a great product? Ahh too bad these are actually cheaper to make as they don't contain as much acid? Rather not have a separate SKU and just have more repeat business every two years...

The cost of a battery is not driven by the amount of acid in the electrolyte. Do the research instead of speculating idly. There are also OTHER FACTORS that go into making a long life battery -- something you'd learn if you'd invested the time/money/effort to expore that issue! :>

You do realize that this sort of information has value? And, costs money to accumulate? Why would someone want to give it away -- to their competitors -- when having it gives them a competitive advantage?

(Note that NDAs work both ways; I can force a vendor not to disclose the specifications for a component that they manufacture FOR ME. I can also USE that component in ways that I hold as Trade Secret and thereby deprive even the component vendor from knowing/disclosing)

Sad, sad person. Clearly looking for VALUABLE INFORMATION without having to spend a penny of your money or time to acquire it. Good luck in your search! Fool.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

I've had car batteries die outside of winter - mechanical failure which shows that you never know when they fail. In fact I've never replaced a battery in the dead of winter, by chance. And though it gets fairly cold during the winter, thinking that batteries are affected by wind chill is ludicrous. On the other hand higher humidity in the air during the summer should reduce evaporation, extending battery life to an extent. Alas this is just speculation.

Of course the batteries that fail in temperature controlled, non cyclic environments won't follow this pattern. Most of these were probably due to abuse than anything else. It also seems that leaving lead acid batteries charged and disconnected also increases cycle longevity for standby use (versus constant trickle charging), alas this doesn't work well for ensuring the batteries are fully charged at time of need, and increases switchover time when an emergency arises.

Kind of funny that any studies, if there are any, aren't put to good use. I know that there are data centers that swap out battery packs every two years to ensure they don't get a failure during a power outage even if they never experience one. If there truly were studies that clearly indicate life extension by dilution to get batteries that guarantee life consistency for 5 years (ignoring the 20 years some people have gotten at AT&T during their testing), wouldn't that be a great product? Ahh too bad these are actually cheaper to make as they don't contain as much acid? Rather not have a separate SKU and just have more repeat business every two years...

Perhaps LiFePO4 cells will now get people to productize long life lead acid packs if there really is a significant advantage to dilution. We shall see (or most likely, not.)

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Strangely I never thought that batteries die in warm climates - coming form the North West of the UK I can guarentee that whenever my car battery died it would be because it was bloody freezing. In summer they seemed to work just fine.

There's a difference between a "warm" climate and a "hot" climate. We often have over 100 days at or above 100F. Batteries die predicatably faster. Rubber tires wear out faster. Roofs fail (develop leaks) in less time. Paint fades at an accelerated rate. etc.

It's pointless for manufacturers (of starter batteries) to try to develop batteries that last longer as the cost/inconvenience of replacing them isn't a big issue when you can do so WITHOUT the discomfort of being stuck in the snow!

And, as most of a battery can be reclaimed during recycling (prohibited to discard them), the manufacturer isn't having to "make new product from scratch" so can tolerate the higher return rate and still make money.

Never having to scrape ice off my windscreen again or waiting for the heaters to warm so I can actually see out of the windscreen is something that I do not miss!

I don't mind the snow/ice and, sort of, miss it. (it was always fun to dig out the snow blower). But, I was in the position of not HAVING to drive in inclement weather; I could just stay home and watch everyone else struggle with it!

[My coldest day was -26F with a wind chill of -83F; my warmest, 117F. Amusing to see exactly a 200F spread, there!]

What I "don't miss" are the grey, overcast skies (we have a handful of "not sunny" days each year) and the absence of true darkness at night.

[dicky96]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

Strangely I never thought that batteries die in warm climates - coming form the North West of the UK I can guarentee that whenever my car battery died it would be because it was bloody freezing. In summer they seemed to work just fine.

Never having to scrape ice off my windscreen again or waiting for the heaters to warm so I can actually see out of the windscreen is something that I do not miss!

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

We've had 100 years of lead acid batteries and... this is new territory?

That's what I feared, nobody has done this study and it's just hearsay yet some people keep claiming that this is true without actually doing the experiments.

And people believe it! Sad, sad people in this world.

(sigh) Apparently can't read. WE HAVE DONE THIS ANALYSIS AND ARE ACTIVELY USING THE RESULTS TO DEPLOY LEAD ACID BATTERIES IN OUR PRODUCTS WITH *20* YEAR LIFESPANS.

You, too, can get any sort of results you desire (want to know how charging current at a particular temperature affects battery life? or, number of discharge cycles to 13% capacity?).

But, you expect it to be sitting on a web site "for free".

Sad, sad person.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

We've had 100 years of lead acid batteries and... this is new territory?

That's what I feared, nobody has done this study and it's just hearsay yet some people keep claiming that this is true without actually doing the experiments.

And people believe it! Sad, sad people in this world.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

when i read about it there wasn't any technical data to support it . whilst we are on flooded batteries they used to have wood cases and in winter you would fully charge it then pull out the plates and wash them in water then hang to dry for putting back in service in the spring . i actually remember seeing wood cased batteries at the farm i was mainly brought up on .

You won't get "technical data" because there are too many degrees of freedom to put it into context. And, manufacturers want to only nail down the minimum number of items that they think absolutely need to be specified (cuz these represent a contract, of sorts, with the designers).

How are you charging? What is the load characteristic? How often are you discharging? What's the BATTERY temperature? Are the plates solid lead? etc.

Look at ANY datasheet. How many omit min and max values for KEY parameters? Instead, they show "typ" numbers. If you design under that assumption and your products fail, the liability is yours alone -- the manufacturer of the component didn't give you any hard numbers. If you insist on "worst case" parameterization, then you either find a vendor who codifies that parameter or PAY to get it "guaranteed" (often by testing at the manufacturers factory).

The original DRAM devices (1Kb, 4Kb, 16Kb, 64Kb, etc.) had to be refreshed with external circuitry. The manufacturer would specify a maximum refresh interval (typ 2ms). But, anyone with ANY experience knew that this was just a cover-their-ass figure; you could often operate the memories at much longer refresh intervals and not lose any data! However, if you designed with that as a basic assumption, the fault was yours if some particular batch of chips failed to retain data reliably, under those conditions. "Ah, your device was operating at 30C, thus failed!"

MOST customers could/would live with the published specifications. Customers who wanted to operate in more specialized environments could get better specifications for the same product -- by operating ONLY in those particular restricted constraints.

If you're a big enough customer (or pay out-of-pocket), you can get the manufacturer's assurances -- in writing -- that the device will perform as you want when operated outside the normal operating conditions as long as it is operated within YOUR SPECIFIC operating conditions.

"Want a battery to last 20 years? No problem. Here's a list of things that you have to do for this particular battery make/model..." Try to do the same things with someone else's battery (different manufacturing process) and all bets are off.

[petehall347]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

i believe alternators kill batteries faster than dynamos . trouble is with dynamos you have to keep an eye on the amp meter . like my old kit car i turn lights off and heater off if driving slowly or ticking over .

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

I guess since not a peep out of anyone about dilution, it's merely hearsay/feels good/seems legit kind of thing with no scientific studies at all, much like a lot of news these days. Not even for any conditions the experimenter chooses, regardless whether someone else may have the same conditions. Maybe it's only like another few percent of service life and people are just feeling good that they may have increased the service life and did not count the additional watering needed due to the higher evaporation rate...

sigh.

As I said, CODIFY your environment and you can get REAL numbers as to what EACH factor contributes to battery life. You think it can all be distilled to a simple rule-of-thumb; it can't.

HIRE someone if you really want hard data -- the sort of data that you can put into contractual form and use to litigate for losses. That's what WE did!

"Letting air out of tires improves traction in snow". Really? How MUCH? Give me a number -- without regard for any other issues that might also affect it. I'll wait...

[petehall347]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

when i read about it there wasn't any technical data to support it . whilst we are on flooded batteries they used to have wood cases and in winter you would fully charge it then pull out the plates and wash them in water then hang to dry for putting back in service in the spring . i actually remember seeing wood cased batteries at the farm i was mainly brought up on .

[eccerr0r]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

I guess since not a peep out of anyone about dilution, it's merely hearsay/feels good/seems legit kind of thing with no scientific studies at all, much like a lot of news these days. Not even for any conditions the experimenter chooses, regardless whether someone else may have the same conditions. Maybe it's only like another few percent of service life and people are just feeling good that they may have increased the service life and did not count the additional watering needed due to the higher evaporation rate...

sigh.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

So nobody knows how much longer? And what's the concentration needed to make a difference, assuming normal charged battery acid is around 30%?

You can codify EXACTLY the operating and charging conditions (current, voltage, temperature, time) FOR A PARTICULAR BATTERY (chemistry as well as manufacturer/model) and get a reasonably good idea of how much a given change in specific gravity is likely to give you in terms of "replacement frequency" -- for a price! :> (we went through several iterations with the contractor before coming up with a "reasonable compromise" that balanced all of our concerns)

There are significant consequences for the BMS -- the sorts of issues you'll not see addressed in a "starter battery" application in a low-cost, "consumer" application (e.g., automobile). How often are you loading the battery? How deeply? How aggressively recharging? Floated while parked in the garage? What is the BATTERY's temperature? How well is the electrolyte mixing (stratification from charging/discharging)?

But, change any of those conditions and the results can change significantly! For example, a battery sitting indoors, between 65 and 90 degrees (F) with a continual float charge and very infrequent, modest calls for power will have an entirely different lifespan from one installed in an electric forklift that sees frequent deep discharges with sporadic (relative to discharges) recharging.

"High output" batteries are often operated at a (charged) specific gravity of ~1.285 (some even higher -- if you don't mind reduced battery life). "Long life" batteries as low as ~1.200. Small changes in specific gravity can make a big difference. And, of course, there are tradeoffs for each end of the spectrum. Acid corrodes (esp the positive plate -- think O2). The more acidic, the greater the corrosive effect.

If you want figures for your specific application, you'll have to codify it, first.

[Curious.George]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

they dont give a fuck about cost - it's just past on,
do you know how much all that fucking plastic they put under the hood to just pretty stuff up costs?

Wow, your ignorance is really showing. Have you ever sat in a meeting with "Marketing" and "Manufacturing" trying to decide which features -- and at which costs -- to include in a product offering? Having to justify your reasons for wanting to include a particular feature/capability if it increases cost in any RECURRING manner? (NRE at many firms is often treated as a "cost of doing business" so, unless a feature adds a sh*tload of NRE, that cost is largely ignored).

By your reasoning, auto manufacturers should include EVERY option in EVERY vehicle sale and just "pass it on", right?

Why aren't ALL cars -- by all manufacturers -- made the same? Why so much PRICE VARIATION? You'd almost think CONSUMERS care about what they PAY for a product!!! And, that VENDORS care about their PROFIT MARGINS!!

Why does any manufacturer put crappy caps in a product? Why not put The Best and just "pass on" the costs for that?

The plastic engine cover isn't there SOLELY to "pretty things up". It also keeps folks away from moving parts as well as discouraging idle tinkering ("No, you don't need to dick with anything UNDER this if the car won't start!"). It also reduces engine noise (as more the more and more common 4-bangers rev higher) and keeping the hood cooler. In some designs, it supports the plug wires (instead of some OTHER piece of "useless"? plastic intended for that purpose). In cold climates, it helps capture heat to faciltate starting (instead of just relying on ducting heat off the exhaust manifold into the carburetor -- and the inevitable loss and misinstallation of that heat riser!)

When listed as a spare part, it is often called a "thermal acoustic cover".

From "Automotive materials: an experimental investigation of an engine bay
acoustic performances":

"Nowadays, the acoustic comfort of a vehicle represents one of the most important aspects of overall quality, since it considerably affects customer’s impression and judgment about. In the field of vehicle acoustic, although exterior noise plays a significant role, the major focus is on interior noise which is influenced by many sources. Of course, the engine and powertrain act as one of the primary excitation sources, together with road noise and wind noise. Hence, in the last years, many car manufacturers are investing in technologies able to provide noise and vibration control from the engine compartment to the passenger cabin. With this regard, proper sound treatments are developed in order to reduce vehicle interior noise and improve
occupants comfort."

Do you think folks actually make purchase decisions based on how "cool" the engine cover looks on vehicle A vs. vehicle B? Why not paint every hose a DIFFERENT bright color? And, install a AROMA DISPENSER to coerce the potential buyer into having "good feelings" about the vehicle while it's sitting in the showroom?

After all, they can PASS ON the costs of all of these things, right?

[stj]

Re: Something is short on my van, but what?

It increases cost. !

they dont give a fuck about cost - it's just past on,
do you know how much all that fucking plastic they put under the hood to just pretty stuff up costs?

there is no need to have a plastic shell over the engine complete with silver screen-print just to make it look better.
it just fucks people off when they have to change the plugs/leads