Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

[dgates]

Is there lab out there that can test electrolytic Capacitors for bad electrolyte.
If so what is the name of the lab. I would think that it would be beneficial that if someone has a large inventory of caps of the same date code, or if they would like to have failure analysis done on a bad cap it would be beneficial to have a couple tested so that they have some assurance that the electrolyte is not an incomplete formula or contaminated

[willawake]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

these guys are probably a good choice
http://www.calce.umd.edu/
since they wrote this paper


the problem is though, what would be the parameters for analysis?
surely some kind of in circuit testing would be easier.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

Actually, If I could afford the testing, which I can't.
I would like to know which brands have the excess impurities in the aluminum.

.

[starfury1]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

just my thoughts on it since you posted the question...not that I have a direct answer for you

well since they do change formulas over time
(and that info is mostly only know to manufacturers)

Also the choice of cap application will probably determine whats in it as far as electrolyte goes

Formulas are tweaked for specific purposes
(and this seems to get very complex...haven't even touch yet on cap construction)
(here a link on some formulas )

I guess the closest thing to a data base is here.

on the "bad electrolyte" that was around the story is somewhere on TC main site
(and that pdf wlla posted by the looks of it)

So I dont think we will see that again ...(not if they like selling caps and not being sued I suppose)
its not the cap manufacture them selfs they were somewhat victims too.
but the supplier of the electrolytic half baked formula

anyway I think thats more or less how the story goes.

I guess getting caps tested for it would be a very very expensive exercise.
sure knowing the formula and construction you could probably predict likely scenarios for given conditions

I agree here with willawake though the "proof of the pudding is in the eating"
how well caps survive in real world type tests or field conditions.
is probably a better guide

Remember to that the Analysis came after the problem had shown up no one it seems was testing the formulas for possible out comes before they went into production.
(maybe at some point it was twigged to but there's an old saying "never admit liability")

I think if you buy quality caps mostly you will be safe but it is also important to select the right TYPE series for the application too.
The wrong type series will fail probably a lot quicker and this is not due to bad electrolyte, just bad choice

I don't know if the big players in electronics even get in to any qualitative testing of caps before hand or just relay on information supplied by cap manufacturers .

(judging by the amount of crap used the only thing they look at is price and will it work for a year or 2)

Electrolytic caps do have a finite life and wet electrolytic especially in power use.

I tend to thing of them like valves sooner or later your going to have to replace them.

Anyway no guru on any of this but hope it helps

Cheers and welcome

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

Well, you see, the famous "bad electrolyte" thing was over years ago.
... Though a lot of people (not from here) seem to think that's the cause behind all bad caps.

That study Willa referred to shows TWO problems with Taiwan caps.

- Bad P51 (I think it was) electrolyte.
- Bad (impure) aluminum sourced from Taiwan/China.

The bad electrolyte is gone...
-
But the aluminum isn't.

I want to know who is still using the impure Taiwan/China local Aluminum and who is getting good aluminum from outside the region now.

.

[starfury1]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

- Bad (impure) aluminum sourced from Taiwan/China.

So this is an on going thing with the construction?

Humm thanks pcbonze

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

On going - yes.

The impure aluminum results in the same failure (gas formation, bloating, venting) as the bad electrolyte did, it just takes longer to happen.

Taiwan and Chinese caps that use local aluminum still have this problem (as far as anyone knows) and that's why Jap caps are still preferred even though the crap electrolyte has been off the market for years.

I think some Taiwan and Chinese manufacturers are using aluminum sourced from outside their country (or are a least more picky about the purity of the aluminum they buy) and those companies are getting a raw deal by association with their neighbors bad choices.

Problem is: who's using the good stuff and who doesn't care?

If we knew there might be more companies on the good list.

.

[starfury1]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

thanks pcbonez
yeah that is a bit of a worry really...so its a bit like Russian roulette with TW china made
true too, those that might actually make a half decent cap
suffer cause of the lower grade crap being used.

cheers

[i4004]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

"Well, you see, the famous "bad electrolyte" thing was over years ago."

what makes you say that?
i recently saw bulging, small caps in the chinese made toy.
and it didn't take long to happen at all.

i wouldn't say problem is eliminated on world-scale. you probably still have chinese companies that are using god knows what electrolyte.
and god knows hure impure aluminum.
those don't have good chances to last more than a year, it seems.

btw. what i dislike is wide generalizations; you can't say that taiwan and chinese caps are generally bad. they're not all bad.
also (and more importantly) if a factory has a bad batch it doesn't mean they're bad company. if you apply that to nichicon, apply it to teapo too.

i have a mobo with teapo that lasted for cca. 22k hours and they're still going strong.
you can't even tell me that i would get better performance from japanese made cap on the same spot. and sure as hell they're much better than nichicon batch dell saw ( http://www.news.com/PCs-plagued-by-b...3-5942647.html ).

we started to pay attention to this relatively recently, but who knows, perhaps rubycon had a bad batch in 70's. how would we know?

[starfury1]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

what i dislike is wide generalizations; you can't say that taiwan and chinese caps are generally bad. they're not all bad.

I didn't think he was, just a higher probability....and it would be nice to who is or who isn't user lower grade aluminum. I think it was more on the side of caution towards them in general

Anyway thats how I took it

True too I think sometimes there are bad runs and in the case of teapo they got bitten bad with the crap electrolytic formula when it happened.

It was the bad lytic formula that really took the lid off this whole bad cap thing.
So it would have been there before
but just not so much in your face type thing,
more thats crap and wont last too long this should stay the distance
might have been more the thought in a techs mind, based on previous experience with them or the circuit they were in.

The aluminum thing seems to (from whats above) take longer to happen.

There seems to be an awful lot of LCD TFT monitors TV's out there with popped caps
in the psu and inverter...so if bad lytic is ruled out whats your (generally speaking) next cause for it.
cap quality or really bad choice of caps for those positions?
(that barring just a shoddy design)

Case in point
General purpose caps used in the output position will probably still get the VRM circuit to fire up and work (somewhat degraded)
one post around here, someone was actually saying why cant I use them if they work

Any cap will fail if its conditions of use are exceeded regardless of quality

Panasonic FM are not totally made in Japan either
(and probably mostly not)
yet are pretty reliable caps from all posts I read here mine are doing fine so far
(they also have Asian specific counter parts for FM FC series)
(barring KC8's post...did you ever get a chance to get back that video card?)

So I think it can come back to who cares about the quality of the cap they make, sell (or the manufacture they re-badge from, theres a bit of that that goes on too)

So I guess its possibly still there as you say,

but whats really needed now is more feedback on what caps are failing and possibly why they failed.

Just my thoughts, and I am not really in the game anymore like a lot here

Cheers

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

i4004

If you dislike wide generalizations why are you making them?
All bad caps do not stem from the same problem and in thinking that you are making a wide generalization.

When was the toy MADE?
When were the caps in the toy made? (They may be years older than the toy.)
When you saw it has little to do with when the caps were made.

The crappy P50 or P51 electrolyte (I forget which it was or if it was both) is gone because the company that was making it and selling it to other companies is gone.
-
I'm sure some companies are using some other just as crappy electrolyte to replace it but that's not part of *the famous* bad electrolyte issue where one company contaminated the whole industries supply.
- That's just the typical and ever present 'some compaines make crap' issue present in any industry.
.

-THE problem-
That's sort of my point.
There is no -THE- to it. There is no -generalized- problem.
There -many- DIFFERENT problems going on with caps.
-
It's important to know all the different problems because if you associate all bad caps to only one root problem you may 'call' some cap good (because it can't have that particular root problem) ,, yet the cap is bad because it has a different problem.
-
Some cases in point: Nichicon HM and HN, Chemicon KZG.
- They can't be bad,,, they aren't made in Taiwain..
[[ See my point here. ]]

By the same token,
It is unlikely that ALL caps made in Taiwan are crap.
- Lab tests would help us know which are and which aren't.

Why? - I don't think I've seen a Teapo that was -actually- bad with a date code after 2005. (Has anyone). - If we knew for sure that Teapo (and some others) have cleaned up their act we could stop replacing them as 'preemptive' repairs. On some boards that could be as much as 20 fewer caps to replace.

~~~

Starfury:
Chemicon, Nichicon, and Panasonic I think all have plants in China (and other places).
But their electrolyte and Aluminum are sourced from their own facilities (usually in Japan.)
It's not outsourced locally.

.

[i4004]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

If you dislike wide generalizations why are you making them?

i am? how?

All bad caps do not stem from the same problem and in thinking that you are making a wide generalization.

i've never said that. i mentioned both problems(that you too mentioned) when talking about worst caps. if there are some more issues, i'm not ditching them.

When was the toy MADE?
When were the caps in the toy made? (They may be years older than the toy.)
When you saw it has little to do with when the caps were made.

a valid point indeed.

I'm sure some companies are using some other just as crappy electrolyte to replace it but that's not part of *the famous* bad electrolyte issue where one company contaminated the whole industries supply.

is it known what company was that?

btw. why is it "famous"? i would say it's more than probable this was happening before and after. it's just that this time it got more attention.
i see no point in accentuating just this case.

what i objected in your post ( https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...61&postcount=5 ) would be this;
somebody reading it might conclude bad elecrolyte is gone.
but it's not really. you've said it yourself there are probably still makers of bad electrolyte.
there are still contaminators.
closing one factory of bad electrolyte won't solve everything.

i understand your general sentiment, but one cannot say for sure bad electrolyte problem is gone today. it is probably a lot better than few years ago, indeed.

There is no -generalized- problem.

when i said i dislike generalizations i would say i was thinking about general sentiment of this place: on good caps list you have 4 out of 5 japanese mfrs. one north american.
you mentioning "Taiwan and Chinese" just reminded me of that.
sure they can be crapshot, but you're well aware that a LOT of the taiwanes and chinese caps are powering a LOT of the boards without problems.
also, like we've established, jap. caps can be crapshot too.
it's just down to people making mistakes.

It is unlikely that ALL caps made in Taiwan are crap.

there you go.
all i needed. thanks.

- Lab tests would help us know which are and which aren't.

that's a good idea. perhaps even members of this board can think of a way to do it themselves. to extract electrolyte from cap and see what sort is it.
and to check aluminum purity.

[starfury1]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

Starfury:
Chemicon, Nichicon, and Panasonic I think all have plants in China (and other places).
But their electrolyte and Aluminum are sourced from their own facilities (usually in Japan.)
It's not outsourced locally.

Agree
I should have made that a bit clearer in saying
"its not where so much as what they are made of "

I think at the end of the day its about who CARES about the product they make.

Drifting of topic really here but in a somewhat related aspect and mostly not relevant

When the quality cap makes (even if its a few cents more) have to go up against cheaper made less quality stuff
The manufactures of goods will choose price over quality, the consumer suffers and at the end of the day they don't do their brand name any good.

but on the consumers side and guess we are all looking to save a buck you tend to think why should I buy that at $1000 when I can get something the same for $300

thing is the $1000 might last 10 years trouble free the $300 will probably be lucky to see 2 or 3
so you shoot yourself in the foot but then again technology is progressing at a fast rate too.
(we just got use to video tape and along come CD' DVD's now they are gearing for blue ray...and of course you know who wants use to buy all our AV collections again for the 3rd~4th time. hi Def TV etc)

Case in point there seems to be a large number of those $4000 idiot boxes that die within 2 years or so due to from what I gather is crap caps.

I think a bad reputation is going to cost a company a lot more the a few caps will.

yeah its a crapshoot game.

Me id rather spend a bit and buy quality if I can get it.
(but sometimes price just rules the pocket)

Just my thoughts on it

Cheers

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

I think extending bad electrolyte problems in low ESR caps to a GP cap found in a toy is extremely wide myself.
They most certainly don't even use the same electrolyte.
Probably do use the same aluminum though.

To the other,

No i4004
Stop taking things out of context.

I never AT ANY TIME said all Taiwan caps are bad.
I said:
Taiwan and Chinese caps that use local aluminum.
>>> that use local aluminum <<<

And the other 'what I said' was:
... the famous "bad electrolyte" thing was over years ago.
... *THE FAMOUS* .... .... .... ....

I assumed you are familiar with the story because you are here.
It's been 'in the news' off-on since 2002.
Quite well known amongst techs and cappers.

http://www.niccomp.com/news/companyp...comp_10_02.asp

[BTW: This stealing formulas all happened in 2001.]

Are they out of business?
In that part of the world if they didn't run fast and FAR I would be surprised if they are still among the living.
They essentially put 30+ companies (and their employees) out of commission at least temporarily and completely destroyed their reputations. I doubt that went over real well locally.

That whole issue gets confused with the Nichicon HN and HM problem all the time (even in the news media) and they aren't even related other than bloated caps result.
-
Dunno how many times I've seen:
"xxxx cap failures (xxxx being some PC with HN/HN caps) are due to [stolen electrolyte story goes here]".

That's just not right.

.

Back to the Famous one: A time-line of sorts:

The cause of the problem was known by late 2002.

(and the above link)

By early 2003 it became widely known.
First major media new story was by The Toronto Star.
Monday February 17, 2003. Title: "A Computer Whodunnit?",
Hundreds of other media agencies picked that up and repeated the story.
[Not to mention forums and such.]

[Right about here the unrelated HN and HM problems started showing up and confusing people.]

Confirmed by formal study in early 2004.


The whole industry was aware of the problem by 2003.
NO ONE that wanted to stay in business would be caught dead with it on their property let alone buying it.

You know, these companies do not like -set out- and intentionally make bad capacitors. They WANT to make a good product. They just don't have good enough QC to make it happen.

.

[i4004]

Re: Are there labs that can test electrolyte to see if it is bad

I think extending bad electrolyte problems in low ESR caps to a GP cap found in a toy is extremely wide myself.

did op mention low esr caps?

I assumed you are familiar with the story because you are here.
It's been 'in the news' off-on since 2002.
Quite well known amongst techs and cappers.

i am familiar with the story. i just said it was famous because of the internet. it got more attention this time.

didn't saw this particular article, true, but i saw plenty of others.