Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

[diif]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

I have the exact same problem as myth77, i use indirect stencils. The balls are washing away, i tried to use less flux, more flux, nearly no flux, bottom heat, bottom heat 107c+top heat with hot air station. What should i do? Last time i had few balls stuck toghether, i checked it before under microscope, everything was aligned.

Use next to no flux, just the tiniest bit to hold the balls in place, then use indirect heat, not hot air.

[somes2121]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

I have the exact same problem as myth77, i use indirect stencils. The balls are washing away, i tried to use less flux, more flux, nearly no flux, bottom heat, bottom heat 107c+top heat with hot air station. What should i do? Last time i had few balls stuck toghether, i checked it before under microscope, everything was aligned.

[Spider1211]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

The edge bonding and underfill, as you mentioned is to provide mechanical stability/strength against drop etc. Most people don't usually replace the glue, but if you want to you could buy it (https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqS6gAb). You can also buy the underfill glue if you want, although I can't find link to it right now.

Can you upload pictures of the lenovo board/chip you mentioned? Whats the reference number?

[myth77]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Update, today i am really tired and pissed off...because of that shity epoxy that lenovo use. I spend a lot of time and nerves tried to clean that black shit from the bga and pch chip. When i replace chips on dead motherboard i usually prefer to use donor board other then to buy a new or used bga chip from china. Till now i had several asus and acer donor boards and it was not that hard to remove chip and clean it and reball it. Today i had for the first time lenovo donor board and boy i was suprised....First it is very difficult to remove chip from the board because of that epoxy and then you are in big trouble try to clean it...I think i will never use lenovo baord again for donor board...or i will never try to repair it if big chips are dead on it....its just to much trouble.
But maybe someone here has some tip on how to easily remove that black epoxy ?

[myth77]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

most likely to prevent water getting in between

OK, i investigate a little and it is not silicone...it is glue/epoxy that is put on corner of the bga chips to increase corner bond of the chip to the PCB. It is mechanical shock absorber, it promotes additional adhession to lessen stress to solder joints incase device subjected to mechanical stress like dropping. to prevent damage from falling laptop/motherboard or curved motherboard...

So, do you use it after replacing bga chips? and if yes what epoxy/glue do you use?

[P Smith]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

update...
So i am practicing and made a couple of reballs ...first few were very bad...but getting better...
The question is regarding water damaged motherboards...i worked on two so far.. The problem is when i try to remove the water damaged chip...lets say cpu...it is partially corroded below because of water damage..and when i try to remove it will go out hard...and even then i pull out some pads from the board. I have to underlane that i use a lot of flux and hot air station is around 220 C, i never try to pull out chip by force...just a little touch to see if it is moving...And i should mention that on non corroded motherboards the removing of dead chip goes fine...
I believe the problem is in corroded pads...and probably because of corrosion they are pulled from the motherboard easily. I was thinking maybe if i increase temperature around 240 C maybe i could remove it more easily but i am afraid that i will damage/curve the motherboard that way.. ?
Have you any suggestions or ideas regarding topic?

I would try to rotate the chip by dental pic... without force !

[P Smith]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

ok, si i have made several bga replacement successfully and didnt bother puting silicon on the bga edges after replacing...but now i am thinking maybe it is a good thing....keeping bga chips from vibrating or something like that...
So, do you put silicon on the edge after successfully installing new bga chips? and what silicon do you use?
thx

most likely to prevent water getting in between

[myth77]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

ok, si i have made several bga replacement successfully and didnt bother puting silicon on the bga edges after replacing...but now i am thinking maybe it is a good thing....keeping bga chips from vibrating or something like that...
So, do you put silicon on the edge after successfully installing new bga chips? and what silicon do you use?
thx

[myth77]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Thank you for advice..
I believe the reason for easy lifting of pads is because the water will more easily corrode the bottom side of the pad that is glued on the board..and that way the pad will be more damaged from bottom side and easier to rip off...

[Spider1211]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Corrosion make desoldering so much more difficult. It seems to bond the pads to the solder. Sometimes it also corrodes the tracks and lift the solder mask. The tracks will most likely come off/shear while desoldering.

240C should be fine, just make sure you preheat the board. This should minimize warping. Try lifting the chip from the side using a curved dental pick (instead of center using suction pen).

[myth77]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

update...
So i am practicing and made a couple of reballs ...first few were very bad...but getting better...
The question is regarding water damaged motherboards...i worked on two so far.. The problem is when i try to remove the water damaged chip...lets say cpu...it is partially corroded below because of water damage..and when i try to remove it will go out hard...and even then i pull out some pads from the board. I have to underlane that i use a lot of flux and hot air station is around 220 C, i never try to pull out chip by force...just a little touch to see if it is moving...And i should mention that on non corroded motherboards the removing of dead chip goes fine...
I believe the problem is in corroded pads...and probably because of corrosion they are pulled from the motherboard easily. I was thinking maybe if i increase temperature around 240 C maybe i could remove it more easily but i am afraid that i will damage/curve the motherboard that way.. ?
Have you any suggestions or ideas regarding topic?

[Spider1211]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Question update...
My question is it safe just to heat chip again, remove that double sized ball and use new balls for soldering or i have to remove all the balls and do reballing process from the start?
The reason why i ask is because i am afraid that although i removed that double sized ball it will allways be a little bigger then surrounding balls because there is no way i can remove it and clean it all the way to the cooper.
Any suggestions?

You do not have to remove all the balls and start over again. Remove maximum solder as you possibly can (lesser time the chip is heat the better, heating the chip for too long can damage it).

Once you removed the excess solder, you could just add the missing solder ball. If you fear it might be too much solder, use the next smaller size ball (for example; if the chip uses 0.4mm ball, you could use 0.35mm to replace the pad/s with 'excess' solder). Once the reflow is complete, look at the chip from the side, they should all look to be at the same level.

If you don't have a a stencil as diif mentioned, try to restrict air flow from your hot air to the maximum where its barely a small breeze as well as having your chip on a level surface. Also do not use too much flux initially as they tend to shift the balls when the liquefy. Once the balls have melted just enough to 'hold on' to the pads, use more flux and reflow them properly. (you could also use a dental pick to control the balls if they move shift during initial heating)

[diif]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

What are you using to heat the chip ? If it's hot air that's moving the balls, switch to direct heat stencils, it will hold the balls in place until they are soldered.

[myth77]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Question update...
While reballing sometimes while heating up the chip to get the balls solder on the chip a few of them moved and solder with a nearest ball. So in one place i have no solder ball and on the nearest spot i have two together that is double size. My question is it safe just to heat chip again, remove that double sized ball and use new balls for soldering or i have to remove all the balls and do reballing process from the start?
The reason why i ask is because i am afraid that although i removed that double sized ball it will allways be a little bigger then surrounding balls because there is no way i can remove it and clean it all the way to the cooper.
Any suggestions?

[dicky96]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Thanks guys
And sorry I seem to have hijacked someone else's thread

@diff
I normally try with the shield on the socket otherwise the machine can't pick it up to position it. I did try on at least one occasion by manually placing the socket and soldering it with the shield missing. I did that by partially unscrewing the vacuum/sensor so the machine stops lowering the top nozzle when the extended sensor hits the capacitors in the centre hole of the LGA socket.

Either way the socket seems to stick firmly to the PCB but by checking continuity between pins in the socket that should be connected to Vcc or ground, I can see it is not soldered properly. If it then remove the replacement socket I can clearly see that some of the solder balls melted - usually near the outside edges - but most of the balls look intact, like they never melted during soldering or desoldering.

Obviously the profile is hot enough to cleanly lift the original and the replacement socket - so why those balls don't melt I don't know unless it is to do with heat conduction between the PCB and the balls

I found some 260C lead free solder paste - though that is even hotter than normal lead free. I can't seem to find any solder paste that is 217C like regular lead free solder.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...archweb201603_

@dEUsjevoo
Well that shows how little I know about stencils then! - I didn't know there were also solder paste stencils. As the one in the video didn't look like a 80mm or 90mm I was dumb enough to assume it must therefore be the other sort: direct heat.

Your explanation of the difference makes perfect sense, but quite where I can get solder paste stencils from I am not sure, nothing matches that seach parameter on Aliexpress which is where i normally look for stuff, and google didn't find anything specific to LGA1151 either.

I will contact the seller on Ali and ask what type of solder balls the LGA sockets have. I bought a box full of them (1151, 1150) from this seller
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3292...27424c4d8Wmawx

And some AM4
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3292...27424c4d8Wmawx



@all
I think best thing is for me to do some video of the whole process and then hopefully someone can tell me what I am doing wrong

[Deusjevoo]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

((Corrected my name in the quotes, it's DEusjevoo, NOT DuEsjevoo (small detail, but for search function...))

@Deusjevoo
Next I am going to try the method seen in the video on this thread...
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84396
Though you suggest that won't work.

Not saying it won't work but a higher risk for head in pillow errors. (HIP is a weak point that can make temporary contact but fail later or fail from beginning)
This means the solder paste melts, solder of socket melts and they should flow into each other. However, sometimes it doesn't, the solder paste melts, solder ball sits in it on top, doesn't mix, cools down and you get a concave melted solder past fitting around the convex solder ball of the socket. The solder ball looks like a head sunken in a pillow, hence the term "Head in pillow". One of the possible problems that might pop up.
It's worth a try of course but if you can get it done using flux only later after knowing your machine/profiles better will be a safer option.

@Deusjevoo
Next I am going to try the method seen in the video on this thread...
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84396
I'm waiting DH stencils at the moment, I only have 90mm ones and there is not enough flat space on the PCB to use that.

Stencil in that video is not a direct heat reball stencil but a solder paste printing stencil, the cut out edges look more like: / \ You squeege the solder on top in it, it sticks to the pcb. Due to bottom openig beeing larger than the top one you can lift the stencil leaving the paste on the pcb.
DH stencils are thicker and have straight cut out flanks on the holes. Solder paste might get lifted when removing.

@Deusjevoo
added
-------
Yes it is a lead free lift. I am not sure what the new LGA1151 are but looking at them i am pretty sure they are also lead free. Thinking about it the solder paste I have is leaded. I guess I need lead free paste to attempt the above method? Or would leaded paste just help to lower the overall melt temperature if used with lead free balls as it would amalgamate/alloy with them.- and also aid with heat conduction into the ball?

Maybe idd better to start with same solder alloy first. Can always switch later if needed.
Should check with supplier and ask what solder those sockets have. If it's SAC307 it needs a 10c higher solder temp. SAC307 is often used as it's cheaper than SAC305 but melts at 227 instead of 217c meaning your profile temp has to be higher too. (Just an optional thought and random example, there are other alloys too but as you have so many fails... Always good to know what they used on it)

[diif]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

Yes it is a lead free lift. I am not sure what the new LGA1151 are but looking at them i am pretty sure they are also lead free. Thinking about it the solder paste I have is leaded. I guess I need lead free paste to attempt the above method? Or would leaded paste just help to lower the overall melt temperature if used with lead free balls as it would amalgamate/alloy with them.- and also aid with heat conduction into the ball?

I don't think you can use leaded paste if you're using the existing pre solderered balls on the new socket. They are just going to squish out the paste which will become liqiudus way before the lead free balls.
The paste will squish out regardless of whether it's leaded or lead free, I don't think you can use the both at the same time.
The methods you've tried have they been with the shield on the socket on or off ?

[dicky96]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

@Duesjevoo
Thanks for the reply. I have the same hot air station as you, though for bottom preheater I am using an improvised method witha Kada 853B hot air preheater, a square metal plate (about 20cm) sitting directly over the hot air vent and a themocouple so i can monitor the temperature of the plate. This seems to work well enough. Once tha balls melt I can finish with the Quick 861 as you say but when I tried using it without getting the balls to melt first, they just wander around. This is with 90mm stencil and jig to reball, not with DH stencils.

I tried using the same profile that desolders fine, and hotter ones, to resolder LGA 1151 sockets (new ones not reballed ones) but as of yet I just can't get them to solder properly and I have tried maybe a dozen times now.

Next I am going to try the method seen in the video on this thread...
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84396

Though you suggest that won't work.

I have the same BGA station as in that video, or near as damn it, but with a different brand name - mines a LY G720

I'm waiting DH stencils at the moment, I only have 90mm ones and there is not enough flat space on the PCB to use that.


added
-------

Yes it is a lead free lift. I am not sure what the new LGA1151 are but looking at them i am pretty sure they are also lead free. Thinking about it the solder paste I have is leaded. I guess I need lead free paste to attempt the above method? Or would leaded paste just help to lower the overall melt temperature if used with lead free balls as it would amalgamate/alloy with them.- and also aid with heat conduction into the ball?

[Deusjevoo]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

In my experience after reballing and removing the stencil, if you use the heat gun from above the tacky flux will liquify and the balls wander around and merge with each other no matter how low the airflow

Too much flux. If this is residue from flux after reballing, leaving the old flux on and then try to "reflow" the balls again it's definitely way too much flux. In BGA Reballing "less is more" definitely applies to flux use.
Also, if your balls attached to the pcb, why would you reflow them again ? Useless imo, unless some didn't align up well. What flux you use?

I found better results heating the BGA from below

No matter what rework job you do, preheating will always help. I reball using DH stencils on a small preheater @200-230c and some HA on top in the final step (if needed) using a Quick 861DW @275c, airflow @40, no nozzle. Might have to lower airflow on smaller balls. (Btw, have a few jigs and NON DH stencils, but prefer the DH ones. Unless maybe if having to do to a specific type of BGA multiple time might setup a jig for it. Although, so used to DH stencils...)

With some practice I have mastered desoldering the BGA without stripping PCB/BGA pads, but as much as I have tried, I have not yet mastered the method of resoldering the BGA once it is reballed (or soldering new ones) regardless of how much or little flux I use.
I think this is because i can't get proper heat transfer to the balls as they are only in slight contact with the PCB so the heat from the PCB preheater and lower air nozzle does not conduct to where it is needed.

If you have perfect lifts your profile should be +/- OK but might need a longer time or a degrees more. I presume that is a lead free lift?
When reballing, lead or lead free?
When soldering BGAs back, what temp (C) is your IR bottom heater set at?
Used top and bot HA profile? Used Ramp values?

I am now trying a different method of 'printing' solder paste onto the PCB using a stencil, then sticking the reballed BGA into the paste then heating. I don't know if that will actually solve my problem yet, I am awaiting some direct heat stencils and solder paste but just by understanding the basics of heat conduction it sounds reasonable that it would work.

This will increase the risk for bad results soldering BGAs back. Risk for creating "Head in pillow" errors. Advise you not to.
If the stencils you ordered are the same DH stencils used for reballing will probably put too much solder paste on the pcb. If you'd heat it up might form a solder ball pretty close to the ones on the BGA itself.

[dicky96]

Re: Noob - reballing, balling, stencil questions...

In my experience after reballing and removing the stencil, if you use the heatgun from above the tacky flux will liquify and the balls wander around and merge with each other no matter how low the airflow

I found better results heating the BGA from below

With some practice I have mastered desoldering the BGA without stripping PCB/BGA pads, but as much as I have tried, I have not yet mastered the method of resoldering the BGA once it is reballed (or soldering new ones) regardless of how much or little flux I use.

I think this is because i can't get proper heat transfer to the balls as they are only in slight contact with the PCB so the heat from the PCB preheater and lower air nozzle does not conduct to where it is needed.

I am now trying a different method of 'printing' solder paste onto the PCB using a stencil, then sticking the reballed BGA into the paste then heating. I don't know if that will actually solve my problem yet, I am awaiting some direct heat stencils and solder paste but just by understanding the basics of heat conduction it sounds reasonable that it would work.