Old programmer

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Mbw1a

Member

Join Date: Nov 2018

Posts: 31

Country: Europa
#1

Old programmer

12-15-2019, 05:59 AM

Hello does any one know what this programmer is for?
Attached Files
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SMDFlea

Super Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2018

Posts: 15431

Country: UK
#2

12-15-2019, 06:08 AM

Re: Old programmer

Some info after a bit of googling

http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/testeq.html

"I have a InLab Inc. model 28A Universal Progammer. It's a PROM and PAL programmer from about 1989. I got manuals and software, but no power supply for it. The power supply is a wall-wart of some sort with a DB-9 female connector to the programmer. Anyone who needs, or has, information on this MOdel 28 or 28A programmer - please contact me! "

EDIT: https://avaluer.com/to/7186839-inlab...e__manuel.html

Last edited by SMDFlea; 12-15-2019, 06:14 AM.

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stj

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#3

12-15-2019, 09:01 AM

Re: Old programmer

try here - this guy has a lot of programmer info
http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/tech.htm
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Mbw1a

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Country: Europa
#4

12-15-2019, 09:07 AM

Re: Old programmer

Okey thanks for the info. 😊

okay can you do something else fun with it? for example programming pic? or is it just junk?
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stj

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#5

12-15-2019, 11:38 AM

Re: Old programmer

it's not junk,
old programmers can read and write stuff the modern ones cant - people doing retro-repair use these type of things.
i use 2 old programmers myself - the modern usb junk wont read pal's or old microcontrollers!
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Per Hansson

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#6

12-19-2019, 12:54 PM

Re: Old programmer

Yep, as stj says, I sure could have used one a year ago right before Christmas.
In the end I had to wire up a crazy contraption on a breadboard that got me through it.
I actually found a picture of it and attached it here for your amusement.
More details in this eevblog thread, might give you an idea what it is useful for...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microc...00/#msg2113300
Attached Files

"The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."
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R_J

Badcaps Veteran

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 9184

Country: Canada
#7

12-19-2019, 01:01 PM

Re: Old programmer

I still have my Needhams, PB-10 with microprocessor adaptor, I keep a pc with isa bus just for that programmer, and I used it last year.
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Mbw1a

Member

Join Date: Nov 2018

Posts: 31

Country: Europa
#8

12-24-2019, 04:39 AM

Re: Old programmer

thanks for all the info. Iwill try to sell it, if that doesn't work. I'll save it😊
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Curious.George

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Join Date: Nov 2011

Posts: 2305
#9

12-25-2019, 02:27 PM

Re: Old programmer

Originally posted by stj View Post

it's not junk,
old programmers can read and write stuff the modern ones cant - people doing retro-repair use these type of things.
i use 2 old programmers myself - the modern usb junk wont read pal's or old microcontrollers!

You have to really know how the programmer was designed to sort out what it *might* be capable of. I use a really crude device to real masked ROMs because my Unisite toasts them (i.e., tries to query the device to identify it and fries it in the process).

Bipolar PROMs are also a challenge for many modern programmers. No doubt the designers figured they are too "old" to bother supporting...
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stj

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#10

12-25-2019, 06:06 PM

Re: Old programmer

the unisite should only use the 13v trick if it's sure the chip is cmos,
cant you disable the i.d. check?
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Curious.George

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#11

12-25-2019, 09:10 PM

Re: Old programmer

Originally posted by stj View Post

the unisite should only use the 13v trick if it's sure the chip is cmos,
cant you disable the i.d. check?

I don't believe so. It's been ages since I've tried a PROM in the Unisite; I can read bytewide devices using one of my in-circuit emulators so have always relied on that for simple, legacy components.

(Most of the devices that I use now are either FLASH-based or use slushware)
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eccerr0r

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#12

12-26-2019, 02:47 AM

Re: Old programmer

Interesting, thought there was some sort of embargo on GAL/PAL programming algorithms?

I still have a few 22V10/16V8/20V8's and the 20V8s are causing me problems - can't reprogram them. The 22V10 and I think the 16V8s seem okay. These are mostly AMD PALCE20V8 devices that I have trouble with, the Atmel/Lattice devices generally are fine IIRC.

BTW, anyone still have a programmer that will do 1702 EPROMs? 2708s/(TMS2716/TMS2732s)?

Last edited by eccerr0r; 12-26-2019, 02:50 AM.
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Curious.George

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#13

12-26-2019, 04:53 AM

Re: Old programmer

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

BTW, anyone still have a programmer that will do 1702 EPROMs? 2708s/(TMS2716/TMS2732s)?

TI's 2716 was a 3-supply part; the TMS2516 is what the rest of the world thinks of as a "2716" (ditto 2532).

The 1702 was a PMOS device and used wacky supply voltages -- both in normal use and when programming (Vpp was something like -45V in contrast with 12-25V for later NMOS & CMOS devices). You likely won't find a (modern) "universal" programmer that can support them.

[I have a small stash of white/gold CERDIPs that I use to maintain legacy devices -- one of my first products used 1702s before riding the wave up to higher capacity devices. For the true history buff, I've also got a couple of WAROMs collecting dust ]
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stj

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#14

12-26-2019, 08:31 AM

Re: Old programmer

i gave away my 1702/2708 programmer - it was a bulky standalone unit.

i can read them with an adapter, and write the TMS parts though.
although i prefer to substitute cmos 27c16 when i replace the 08's
they run cool and the power consumption of the nmos parts is shocking!
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eccerr0r

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#15

12-27-2019, 01:18 AM

Re: Old programmer

Yeah I figure as much, specifically singled out the 1702 (256x8) 2708 (1Kx8) TMS2716 (2kx8) and TMS2732 (4kx8) because they all need a lot of supply voltages to even run normally, something that "modern" programmers simply won't do. It's a wonder some modern programmers even get the 21V or 25V VPP for "normal" eproms.

The tricky thing is that you'd have to also mod the socket to replace with a standard 2716/2732 too... but perhaps just cutting traces or leaving the pin outside is sufficient, it's been ages since I looked at the TMS2716/TMS2732 chip data, bleah ...

(Oh, no... I was looking at my eprom stash and what did I find? Two TI TMS2716-45s and a MOTOROLA TMS2716C ... why did motorola want to second source braindeadness when they had MCM2716's...

At least I have two TMS2532 single supply units, at least during read.)

Last edited by eccerr0r; 12-27-2019, 01:26 AM.
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Curious.George

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#16

12-27-2019, 05:31 PM

Re: Old programmer

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

Yeah I figure as much, specifically singled out the 1702 (256x8) 2708 (1Kx8) TMS2716 (2kx8) and TMS2732 (4kx8) because they all need a lot of supply voltages to even run normally, something that "modern" programmers simply won't do. It's a wonder some modern programmers even get the 21V or 25V VPP for "normal" eproms.

Many "modern" programmers just target the devices they THINK folks will want to use. Having been designed relatively recently would suggest they will target (only) newer devices: "Who could possibly want to program one of those OLD chips???!"

[When was the last time you saw a 7603?]

The tricky thing is that you'd have to also mod the socket to replace with a standard 2716/2732 too... but perhaps just cutting traces or leaving the pin outside is sufficient, it's been ages since I looked at the TMS2716/TMS2732 chip data, bleah ...

If you wanted to support both, you'd put solder switches in the artwork (or jumpers).

(Oh, no... I was looking at my eprom stash and what did I find? Two TI TMS2716-45s and a MOTOROLA TMS2716C ... why did motorola want to second source braindeadness when they had MCM2716's...

At least I have two TMS2532 single supply units, at least during read.)

In the late 70's, early 80's, EVERYTHING was about having second sources. E.g., the 68K was sourced by *8* vendors as leverage to get it into big designs. Sole source parts (like the 6809E) usually left the customer at the mercy of the vendor in terms of pricing AND availability. (Nothing worse than a part that you need going "on allocation" and wondering how you were going to get ANY of them, regardless of price!)

Note that you can emulate 2732's by deadbugging 2716's. The beauty of the 27xx pinout was that you could design to support successor devices without making many changes to the site's layout. (which is why TI's parts were so annoying!)
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megaraider

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#17

12-27-2019, 05:34 PM

Re: Old programmer

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

Interesting, thought there was some sort of embargo on GAL/PAL programming algorithms?

I still have a few 22V10/16V8/20V8's and the 20V8s are causing me problems - can't reprogram them. The 22V10 and I think the 16V8s seem okay. These are mostly AMD PALCE20V8 devices that I have trouble with, the Atmel/Lattice devices generally are fine IIRC.

For those i've always used the Labtool-48UXP without any problems whatsoever (any GAL/PAL brand).
(Bargain from someone who didn't really what to bother with LPT port)
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eccerr0r

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#18

12-27-2019, 06:56 PM

Re: Old programmer

I have a few 74S287s lying around somewhere... now where can I get a programmer for these
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Curious.George

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#19

12-27-2019, 07:10 PM

Re: Old programmer

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

I have a few 74S287s lying around somewhere... now where can I get a programmer for these

The UniSite will program them. But, that's a helluvalot of programmer to buy just for the occasional oddball part! (OTOH, you can probably pick one up on fleabay for a few hundred dollars, nowadays. Shipping will eat your lunch, though!)
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stj

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#20

12-27-2019, 08:41 PM

Re: Old programmer

i can program bipolar roms with my micromaster1000
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