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Old 03-12-2014, 02:36 PM   #1
eponymous
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Default KZG replacements - are there any?

Hi all,

I'm new to re-capping boards and this forum and have an ASUS-A8N-SLI which has about eight KGZs on it.

After looking at the KGZ datasheet I see the ripple and impedance for the can sizes on the boards are (6.3v-35v):

8x20: Imp. 0.021 / Ripple 1870
8x11.5: Imp. 0.036 / Ripple 1140

Searching on here, Digikey/Mouser/Farnell I can't find any capacitiors that even come close to those values. The ZL(H,G,J) are worse in comparison and the only thing that comes close and is available in 8mm diameter, is the Nichicon HN/HZ! Getting a hold of these is next to impossible though and they aren't listed on the Nichicon page anymore. Now discontinued? Is there a replacement?

I don't think I can manage to squeeze in 10mm diameter caps as the clearance is already next to nothing.

Have I totally missed something here or is there an abundance of appropriate capacitors somewhere?

Thanks!
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

You're right, Nichicon HN or HZ are pretty much the only ones. Nichicon HM will also work imho.

The alternative is to simply go and use polymer capacitors.

For example, 3300uf 6.3v KZG capacitors on the VRM section (near CPU) can be easily replaced with 1800-2200uF 4v polymer capacitors because those voltages are under 4v anyway - Badcaps store has HZ for $1 each, Digikey has 2700uF 4v polymers for $1.46 if you buy 10, $1.09 if you buy 100: http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...106-ND/1662492

Looking at what you selected, I guess it's probably looking at

1800uF 6.3v or 1000uF 16v

820uF 6.3v or 470uF 16v

1800uF 6.3v can be replaced by 1200-1500uF 4v if you're sure there's less than 5v there (in vrm section for example)
1000uF 16v can be replaced by 680-820uF 16v polymer
470uF 16v can be replaced easily by 330-470uF 16v polymer
etc etc

The price difference really isn't that high, just 20-30% extra maybe.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

Actually, polymer caps that large are not needed and might sometimes upset the circuit due to extremely low ESR. 820-1000uF poly will work fine for replacing 3300uF 6.3v KZG. Tried, tested dozens of times and confirmed with ESR meter.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

He's probably dealing with 1500uF 6.3V caps (assuming they are on the VRM). I often use 820uF 2.5V polies to replace them, and it always works. You could use some of these (http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...4CT-ND/4204369) 820uF OS-CON caps

EDIT: Looking at that board, it seems there are some 1500uF 6.3V caps on the VRM-low which can be replaced by said OS-CONs, as well as some 1000uF 16V caps on the VRM high side, which can be replaced with these Nichicon LG 470uF 16V caps.
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Old 03-13-2014, 03:53 AM   #5
eponymous
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

Thanks for the replies all.

Yeah so the board consists of Rubycon YXAs, Panasonic FRs and (the ones of interest) Nichicon KZGs.

Of the KZGs, two are 470uF/16v (near the PCI slots) and eight are 1500uF / 6.3v at the VRM for the CPU.

I was only going to bother replacing the KZGs. I'm trusting the board desginers with their choice of the not-very-low-ESR Rubycon YXAs and so wasn't going to bother replacing them. The Panasonic FRs I presume are ok too.
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Old 03-13-2014, 06:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

>> I'm trusting the board desginers with their choice of the not-very-low-ESR Rubycon YXAs and so wasn't going to bother replacing them.

There are also Rubycon MBZs near the VRM as well so they should be ok.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

So after having another look at my board I've decided to stick with wet Electrolytics (they're dirt cheap compared to Polymer caps) and just go up in sizes to get the Ripple/ESR values I need.

Inspired by Topcat's thread I'm going to use 10mm caps and just hope the lead spacing of 5mm into 3.5mm spaced holes won't cause too much of an issue with series inductance.

I drew up a table after pouring through datasheets and contrasting against commonly available and cheap alternatives. This was mostly for my benefit but others may find it useful too.

Code:
-----------------------------------------------------------
| MANUFACTURER | SERIES | DIMENSIONS | RIPPLE | IMPEDANCE |
| ======================================================= |
| UCC          | KZG    | 8x11.5     | 1140   | 0.036     | -> what I have currently for PCI-E (470uF/16V)
| UCC          | KZG    | 8x20(19?)  | 1870   | 0.021     | -> what I have currently for CPU VRM (1500uF/6.3v)
| ------------------------------------------------------- |
| Panasonic    | FR     | 8x20       | 1560   | 0.030     | -> possible replacement for PCI-E caps
| Panasonic    | FR     | 10x16      | 1790   | 0.028     |
| Panasonic    | FR     | 10x20      | 2180   | 0.020     | -> possible replacement for CPU VRM caps
| Nichicon     | HM     | 8x11.5     | 1140   | 0.030     | 
| Nichicon     | HM     | 10x12.5    | 1540   | 0.025     | 
| Rubycon      | ZLG    | 10x12.5    | 1430   | 0.027     | -> possible replacement for PCI-E caps
| Rubycon      | ZLG    | 10x20      | 2180   | 0.014     | 
-----------------------------------------------------------
So from that I've decided to replace the two UCC KZG 470uF/16V/8x11.5 with either:
  • Rubycon ZLG (470uF/16v/10x12.5)
  • Panasonic FR (470uF/25v/8x20)

The eight UCC KZG 1500uF/6.3V/8x20(possibly 19/they seem shorter?) will be replaced by:
  • Panasonic FR (1500uF/16v/10x20)

I can get the above caps for around 0.20/$0.33 each but going with Polymers would cost me half of what I paid for the board in replacements I can see the appeal however.

The only thing that concerns me putting 5mm lead-spaced caps into 3.5mm spaced holes, but perhaps that is a subject for another thread...

Does this look sensible or have I missed something?

P.S. I'd recommend anyone else who is pouring through datasheets, to actually draw up a little table like I did above - it really makes thing simpler!

Last edited by eponymous; 03-13-2014 at 12:36 PM..
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

There is a 1500uF/10V/8mm ZLH which should also be worth considering - it's not as low ESR as the ZLG, but it has double the endurance at 8000 hours, IIRC.
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Old 03-14-2014, 05:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

If those 11.5mm tall caps are close to the PCI-E slots or in between them, taller caps might interfere with some cards. The Nichicon HM caps might be a better choice since they're the same height as the original.
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxguru View Post
There is a 1500uF/10V/8mm ZLH which should also be worth considering - it's not as low ESR as the ZLG, but it has double the endurance at 8000 hours, IIRC.
Thanks. I did check this however the ripple is only rated at 1500 mA/r.m.s./105C, 100kHz whereas the original KZGs were 1870. Mind you it's possible the KZGs are way overspecced for this board but I can't be sure. Also the impedance is 0.007 higher in the ZLH series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lti View Post
If those 11.5mm tall caps are close to the PCI-E slots or in between them, taller caps might interfere with some cards. The Nichicon HM caps might be a better choice since they're the same height as the original.
Yes this is a very good point - one which I should've mentioned in my post above. I have taken measurements and I think I can get away with 20mm high caps which will stick up over the slots. The only reason I say that is that this motherboard will have one use and one use only for me. It's not ideal but with the current PCI-E boards I've got in (small RAID cards) there are no obstructions.

The other alternative is to go for the 10x12.5mm caps i.e. lower the height but increase the diameter; I think this is more problematic purely because there is zero clearance between the current 8mm caps and the PCI-E slot

It's a tradeoff either way.

P.S. The HM series would probably solve all my problems but they just aren't stocked at the supplier I always go with so I have to make do with Panasonic. Since this motherboard isn't very expensive I need to keep the overall repair costs down

Last edited by eponymous; 03-15-2014 at 06:09 AM..
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:23 AM   #11
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

HM, HN, HZ are discontinued so you will find them in stocks less and less.
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:11 AM   #12
eponymous
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariushm View Post
HM, HN, HZ are discontinued so you will find them in stocks less and less.
Ahh that explains it.

I'm guessing the manufacturers will move to focusing on Polymers since they offer way better ESR values than electrolytics.

It's just a shame that we seem to be at the point where the cheap electrolytics have been discontinued but the polys are still fairly expensive.
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Old 03-15-2014, 03:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

Pretty much any capacitor can replace a chemicon KZG/Rubycon MCZ as both series have been manufactured with serious flaws and never performed to spec.
ZLH will work just fine.
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: KZG replacements - are there any?

Mobo Gigabyte GA-P35-S3G is full of Chemicon KZG caps:
16V,470uF,SL-ESR,R.C:1140,imp:0,036,2000H,d.f:0,16 (8x11) -1x
6,3V,1000uF,SL-ESR,R.C:1310,imp:0,021,2000H,d.f:0,22 (8x11) -20x (custom capacity)

Screen GA-P35-S3G with description and caps locations + several mosfets IDs):
http://img201.imagevenue.com/img.php...2_122_56lo.jpg


Possible caps for replace KZG are polymers Nichicon FPCAP NE and L8/NU
KZG 16V,470uF --> NICHICON FPCAP NE 16V,470uF (8x11,5)
KZG 6,3V,1000uF --> NICHICON FPCAP L8 6,3V,1000uF (8x8)-down sized NU
or --> NICHICON FPCAP NU 6,3V,1000uF (8x11,5)

KZG are Super Low ESR, NE/L8/NU are also Super/Ultra Low ESR(+same size,endurance,+R.C(NE/L8/NU).:5000/5700/5700, Leak.Current:1504/1260/1260, d.f:0,08/0,12/0,08)

It is correct replacement? Or exist any reason, why do not use this Nichicon polymers for recap all of KZGs on this mobo?

I do not know the R.C. multiplier of any polymers. If 120Hz=0,05, R.C= 250/285/285 => polymers are not applicable with low frequency...

but...
Mobo GA-EP43T-UD3L is full of Chemicon PSC/PSE/PSF polymers (without any of classic elyts):
http://img13.imagevenue.com/img.php?..._122_152lo.jpg

polymers is suggested for use in VRM outputs only, but here is used not only in VRM sections.

Last edited by zuhr14; 03-24-2014 at 10:02 AM..
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