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Old 10-23-2011, 12:22 AM   #1
momaka
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Default Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Iíve been trying to fix this Shuttle SB83G5A computer for a while now. When it was given to me, the motherboard had 1 visibly bad cap on V_DIMM and all 4 bad caps on what I believe is the Northbridge/Southbridge VRM (3 on low side, 1 on high side). The bad caps were all OST. I replaced them with equivalent/superior Nichicon caps. The motherboard is a FB83 I think.

The problem is that the fans spin and nothing else happens.

What Iíve tried so far (with no further success):
- replaced a few more caps other than the obviously failed ones, but that didnít help.
- tried using 2 other known-good power supplies (one is a fully recapped 300W Macron Power, the other one is this) besides the original one, which has no visibly-bad caps.
- I reset the CMOS Ė in fact, after the first few tests, I completely removed the CMOS battery.
- tried the motherboard with and without RAM. The memory sticks Iíve used for the test are known good, and I am using them in other computers right now without a problem.

What seems to be working so far:
- V_DIMM voltage Ė it shows 2.5V stable, with and without RAM. Some of the other smaller linear voltage regulators also seem to be working fine.
- The Southbridge, since I can shut down and start the computer from the button successfully, as well as restart it.

Iíve measured some of the derived voltages on the motherboard. Thereís a number of them that arenít coming up (they jump up a bit then settle to a low value), including the CPUís V_CORE. Iíve checked all MOSFETs on these rails, and none are shorted.

I think the problem is with Northbridge/Southbridge VRM, since it shows 0.6V only and Iím almost certain 0.6V canít be high-enough for the NB and SB. My logic is that if the NB/SB voltage is not right, then perhaps the other voltages on the motherboard wonít be either. The only reason I suspect the NB/SB VRM is because the lower MOSFET *seems* to have a slight bubble on it as best as I can tell.

Iíve circled the NB/SB VRM with red. The lower MOSFET is connected between 3.3V rail of the PSU and NB/SB VRM. The upper MOSFET is connected between ground and NB/SB VRM. Caps with red dots on them are on NB/SB VRM low. Yellow Ė NB/SB VRM high. Green Ė V_DIMM 2.5v

In any case, my question is, does anyone know what that NB/SB voltage should be? Perhaps someone who has this motherboard can measure it and tell me if itís not too much of a hassle?

I would really like to get this PC fixed, since it has a PCI-E slot (a first for me). I like the small form factor of the case as well.

Also, if anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know. At this point Iím open to any and all ideas. In fact, Iíve very tempted to just insert 1.5V on that spot and see what happens.
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:55 AM   #2
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
The lower MOSFET is connected between 3.3V rail of the PSU and NB/SB VRM. The upper MOSFET is connected between ground and NB/SB VRM.
1) You know more about this repair than I since I'm still learning, but what is the part number of the mosfet?

2) I assume all these tests were done with a cpu installed?
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Thanks for the reply, retiredcaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredcaps View Post
1) You know more about this repair than I since I'm still learning, but what is the part number of the mosfet?
Good call. Don't know why I didn't think about looking it up.
Both MOSFETs on the NB/SB VRM are Alpha and Omega 4404 N-channel MOSFETs.
I found the data sheet. Says it's rated for 8.5A continuous, and 24 mOhms min Rds(on). Will look through my junk pile and see what I can find as I do have a few dead motherboards and video cards. I'm still very tempted to just insert 1.5V with an external source on the NB/SB VRM low side since replacing these MOSFETs just seems like a pain in the butt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredcaps View Post
2) I assume all these tests were done with a cpu installed?
Correct.
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
I think the problem is with Northbridge/Southbridge VRM, since it shows 0.6V only and Iím almost certain 0.6V canít be high-enough for the NB and SB.
I'm not sure if my understanding of how this works is correct or not, but the AO4404 datasheet says that the gate threshold voltage minimum is 0.7V, typical is 1.0V, and max is 1.4V.
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:23 AM   #5
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

look at that vrm again.iirc 915 uses 1.5v core.could also be shorted.does nb or vrm get hot?
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc8adu
look at that vrm again.iirc 915 uses 1.5v core.could also be shorted.does nb or vrm get hot?
Correct, 915 uses 1.5v core. Nothing gets hot, though, and that's what worries me a bit. I measured resistance between the NB/SB VRM low and ground and the lowest I got was 40 Ohms. Switching the probes around gives higher readings. In any case, I can't get a short circuit across either of the MOSFETs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredcaps View Post
I'm not sure if my understanding of how this works is correct or not, but the AO4404 datasheet says that the gate threshold voltage minimum is 0.7V, typical is 1.0V, and max is 1.4V.
Vgs(th) indicates just what voltage the MOSFET needs in order to turn on.

Good thing you brought it up, though. I measured the Gate voltage on both MOSFETs and here's what I got:
- the lower (supposedly bad) MOSFET that's connected between 3.3v rail and NB/SB VRM low has 1.4v on its Gate.
- the upper MOSFET that's connected between ground and NB/SB VRM low has 0.0v on its Gate.

So if I'm not mistaken, it looks like the PWM controller controlling these MOSFETs is trying to make the lower MOSFET conduct, but perhaps the lower MOSFET is open?
As for the 0.6v present on the NB/SB VRM, my only guess is that this is caused from leakage current from other components. Any thoughts on this?

If not, I guess I'll remove the lower MOSFET, test it out of circuit, and then proceed from there.

Last edited by momaka; 10-24-2011 at 11:05 PM..
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

It's really been a while since I last updated the info in this thread. I removed the lower 4404 MOSFET a long time ago and tested it out of circuit - there was a short circuit (6-8 Ohms actually) not only between Source and Drain of that MOSFET but also between Gate and Drain! Checking the resistance between the Gate pad on the motherboard for that MOSFET and ground revealed a short circuit too. So looks like the MOSFET took out the controller with it after it shorted. GREAT! The controller that's responsible for driving this buck circuit is a RichTek RT9203.

And now for some more bad news...
Before I even found the gate drive on the RT9203 controller for that MOSFET was shorted, I tried wiring up a 60N03 MOSFET in place of the dead 4404 to see if the NB voltage would come up. And in this process, I managed to rip the pad on the board for the Gate of that MOSFET. So now even if I do get a replacement RT9203 controller and 4404 MOSFET, I would still have to do some ghetto hacks to wire the Gate drive.

I've been eager to test that computer so I've also been working on a 1.5V DC-DC power supply. Finally made a design not too long ago that actually works well enough with more than 0.5A of load, but I think it's oscillating at high loads (2A and above). It's a linear setup with a single MOSFET and XRA10358 (equivalent to LM358) op-amp. I'll leave that for another thread, though. Maybe if I get that working, I'll use it instead of buying replacement MOSFET and controller. Not that the controller is that expensive or anything. Just eager to build my own working DC-DC low-voltage power supply. Right now, the circuit I have works fine with 0.5A of load or less. When I go above 1A, the voltage goes up to 1.6V - I'm not sure if the Intel 915G NB will like that. Finally, when I increase the load to 5A, the output drops to 1.42 to 1.48V (it's fluctuating all the time).

Last edited by momaka; 11-11-2012 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

And another update for this thread (if anyone cares, lol ).
.
.
I bought a replacement RT9203 controller from eBay. Since the gate trace to the upper MOSFET was ripped on the board, I decided I might as well just kludge it with a DPAK MOSFET (I have quite a few of them). Ended up using a 60N02 MOSFET (25V, 62A, 8.4 mOhm Rds_on). Pictures of the handy work are attached below . Yeah, I know... as usual. The braid soldered to the MOSFET's tab is its heat sink and holder, BTW .

Surprisingly when I powered it on, nothing smoked . However, the motherboard is still dead as a stone . I checked the voltage output of the NB buck regulator and it's putting out 1.44-1.45V. That seems pretty close to the required 1.5V for the NB, don't you think?

Also, now that the NB voltage rail is present, all of the other major voltage rails are present too. Before this, the CPU Vcore and RAM VTT were not present along with a few other voltage rails. So looks like there IS some progress after all.

CPU Vcore is at 1.57V, though. Isn't that a bit high? FYI, CPU is a 2.8 GHz Pentium 4 (socket 775, Prescott??). I just looked on CPU-World website and all Pentium 4 for the socket 775 are rated for up to 1.4V. So something looks wrong here I think . Caps on the CPU VRM low side seem fine though (there's 4x 6.3V 3300uF Ost RLS and 8x 4V 560uF Sanyo SEPC polymers). If anything, those polymers should be keeping everything stable. In addition, I added an extra 4V 820uF Fujitsu FP-CAP RE series, so I think there shouldn't be any excess ripple on the CPU VRM output.

Lastly, I tried a POST card. Doesn't look like the BIOS is trying to boot at all (POST card stays at "00"). Normally, the POST card will display some numbers as the BIOS is going through the POST process. CPU fan is still blowing on full blast (it's PWM controlled and should slow down if POST is successful).

Another abnormality I noticed is that the first few times I tried the computer after I put in the MOSFET and the RT9203 buck controller is that the POST card indicated that the PSU 3.3V rail was not present and the NB voltage was only showing 1.34V (unless I made an error measuring with my multimeter). I then connected the PCI-E auxiliary power connector on the motherboard (it's a 4 pin floppy connector) and on the next boot, the POST card indicated that the PSU 3.3V rail was present and the NB voltage rail came up to 1.45V. Ever since then, it doesn't matter if I have the PCI-E auxiliary power connected or not - PSU 3.3V rail on the POST card always shows up as present and the NB voltage rail has been fine since then too. Coincidence or weird occurrence?

So, any ideas? I believe I have tried pretty much everything on this motherboard. The only few things I could still try is a new CPU, replace the NB, and maybe reflash the BIOS or replace it altogether. Out of these 3, though, only replacing the CPU seems something I can do. I can't replace the i915 NB because I don't have another one (unless someone here has a dead board with one and doesn't mind pulling it off), and I don't have a BIOS flasher. So if anyone has any ideas, it'd love to hear them. I don't need this computer badly or anything, but it would be nice to have and also good learning experience (+ highly rewarding for my mind since I've done so much work on it ).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Suttle XPC FB83 (7).jpg (316.5 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg Suttle XPC FB83 (8).jpg (273.7 KB, 56 views)

Last edited by momaka; 01-01-2013 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

I really like your attention to details, wish I were 1/2 as good as you.

Let me know what plcc chip you have, I have a box of spare plcc chips and I can easily program for you and ship it out for free.

Looking forward for updates.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Thanks for the offer and kind comments, Gabriel. Before trying another BIOS chip, I think I have another problem I need to straighten out first, and that is the CPU voltage. I just did another test 5 minutes ago and CPU voltage is still at 1.56V - 1.57V. This is definitely not right! Thus I ended up recapping the 4x OST RLS 10V 3300uF caps with 6.3V 2700uF Rubycon MFZ (pulled from Xbox 360s... FYI these MFZ caps have much better specs than the OST RLS series). But the voltage was still the same.

I'm not sure what controls the CPU voltage, but I can only think of a few things that can affect it. Either NB is bad and not detecting the CPU properly, the CPU socket joints are cracked (I will admit that there were a few times where I wasn't very gentle with this motherboard), the CPU is bad, or the BIOS is corrupt and giving the wrong info to the CPU voltage controller.

Was going to get a cheap refurb P4 CPU at MicroCenter today, but they were out of stock. So the next option I think I will try is to do a CPU socket reflow. If that doesn't fix it either, then I might change the NB (if I find another one from a junk motherboard) or get a new BIOS chip. Unfortunately, I'm starting college again, so I don't know when I will have time to work on this. But as always, any suggestions on what to try are welcome.
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:31 PM   #11
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Talking Shuttle SB83G5A - she's alive!

Before anyone else says it... YES, HOLY ANCIENT THREAD REVIVAL, BATMAN!

It's not without a reason, though! - the Shuttle SB83G PC in this thread is alive!!!
.
.
.
Well, sort of. I'll elaborate.
She's not exactly fixed yet. But at least I found the problem, and you're not going to believe it - bad BGA in the CPU socket, just as I suspected right from the beginning. (that is, after I recapped the motherboard and fixed the NB VRM)

So how is it that I found about it now, you ask? Simple: pure luck.
After doing a full recap on this motherboard... more than 6 years ago, mind you ... I needed some short 6.3V 1500/1800 uF caps recently. Since I didn't have any in stock, I remembered the recap I did in this PC and pulled it out from storage (yes, probably shocking to some of you that I even kept it this long), then pulled most of the good caps from its motherboard. I figured it's dead forever and I would probably never be able to revive it, so I started pulling various cables and parts from this system all these years. Who knew I would prove myself wrong!

After pulling some of the good caps from this motherboard for use on other projects, I still felt bad for it. Thus, I shoved back in a few of the original capacitors that were still good (namely, the OST RLS on the CPU VRM), along with a few excess pulled Teapo SC. I powered it on, and nothing had changed - mobo still dead and POST card stuck at "FF". (Previously, I mentioned in my above posts that it was stuck on "00". But over the years, I found that this POST card will usually give "00" in dusty PCI slots and/or ones with tarnished contacts, until the card is inserted a few times to clean them. After doing this, I got a stable "FF" and no BUS activity on the PCI slot, other than when PWR or RESET buttons were pressed.)

Also, the ghetto Northbridge VRM repair shown above in post #8 kind of started to bother me. Even though the motherboard was dead, I decided to re-do it a bit neater and maybe give the PC another go at testing.

I still didn't have any SOIC-8 MOSFETs for a proper replacement, so I just re-arranged/re-soldered the TO-252 MOSFET, like so:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1556847019
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1556847019
Yes, that handiwork is not beautiful by any means. But hey, the MOSFET still fits and the circuit still works! (Note: capacitor CE83 was re-installed after taking these pictures - a Rubycon MFZ 6.3V 820 uF from an Xbox 360.)

I checked the voltage after re-doing the above MOSFET, and the NB VRM still had proper voltage (about 1.52V this time.)

But apart from that, the motherboard was still "dead", with the POST card showing "FF" and CPU voltage still incorrect at almost 1.6V. In my last post here, I mentioned that I should try another CPU... which I did (another Pentium 4 CPU) many years ago. I just didn't bother updating the thread because nothing had changed in terms of symptoms. This left only three things I suspected could be wrong: bad Northbridge (due to the VRM burning out the first time), bad BIOS, or bad BGA in the CPU socket.

While bad BGA in the CPU socket seemed unlikely, I will tell you why I had a suspicion this was the issue: when I was taking this PC apart for the first time, there was a rubber foot between the motherboard and the case, right under the CPU socket. I imagine due to heat, it had its glue badly melted. Because of this, the motherboard was still stuck in the case, even after I had removed all screws. I remember I rotated and flexed the motherboard quite a bit before the glue on that rubber foot finally gave up. And this is when I suspect I had cracked the socket BGA. But due to the bad caps on the motherboard and later the shorted NB VRM MOSFET, I just didn't want to believe this was the issue, even though this incident with flexing the motherboard was always on the back of my mind all along.

So when I saw the wrong CPU voltage this time in addition with the POST card stuck in "FF" and no change in behavior regardless of whether or not I had RAM in the system... something in the back of my mind put two and two together that perhaps it is a BGA issue with the CPU socket. Thus, I decided to insert some pressure on the CPU cooler and try powering the motherboard that way. I don't know why I didn't think of doing this before, as I've suggested it numerous times to other people here when doing motherboard troubleshooting.

So with everything still connected the same way, I pressed hard on the CPU socket and then pressed the power button. Miraculously, this time I saw the POST codes on the POST card change. After two seconds, the motherboard turned off, then auto-powered again, ran through different POST codes, and then... BEEP! - my LCD screen turned On and I got a picture on it, saying default CMOS settings running!

Just to make sure I wasn't day dreaming or imagining things, I decided to re-run all these tests. First, I turned Off the PC. Then, I tried powering the system On without inserting pressure over the CPU socket/cooler. Unsurprisingly, the system didn't boot and POST card was stuck again on "FF" code. I powered it down, inserted pressure over the CPU, then powered On again. But I wasn't imagining things - the PC POSTed successfully again!

With all that being said and done, I think this confirms it that the BGA for the CPU socket was (hopefully) my last issue with this PC. Now the question is whether I should try re-flowing the CPU socket BGA or just insert something underneath it to put pressure on the board. The reason I am hesitant to do a reflow is because I would need to remove all of the electrolytic caps in the area (again.) Leaving them in would surely pop them, as they are connected with thick Coper traces to the CPU socket. Also, there's always a chance something could go wrong with the reflow and thus mess up the motherboard even more. In particular, I've never done any large CPU socket reflows like this, and I know the process requires quite a bit of heat. This means there's a considerable chance I could warp the board when doing so and actually make it irreparable. On the other hand, propping the motherboard with something underneath it for applying pressure under the CPU socket could also warp the board over time and make it impossible to do a successful reflow/reball on the CPU socket. So that's why I'm not keen on doing that either.

Yes, I know this is only an old (and now quite worthless) Pentium 4 motherboard that's arguably worth spending any time on. But please take a moment to understand that I am doing this for fun. I've come so far (and so close), that I really just have to finish it now. Hence, all the pondering above about what would be the better way to proceed. With that said, does anyone have any suggestions regarding the above matter?

Also, I see that I never posted a "cap map" for this motherboard, which is something I always do with my other recaps. Funny, because I did draw one many many years back (and scanned it too.) I don't imagine anyone would be recapping such an old PC anymore... but why not, right?

Anyways, cheers!

I'll update this thread again when I think of a way to fix the CPU BGA socket issue. Might not be very soon, but we'll see.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Shuttle XPC FB83 - NB Vcc VRM repair (1).jpg (141.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Shuttle XPC FB83 - NB Vcc VRM repair (2).jpg (171.9 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by momaka; 05-02-2019 at 07:39 PM..
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:06 AM   #12
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

i'm not sure if reflowing a board with a ruptured pad is a wise idea... bad things might happen?? just write a note to self with the board and leave it aside until another board comes by. maybe write,"bad cpu bga and ruptured nb vrm mosfet pad. unable to reflow", as the note. that should help remembering what happened with this board. until then, just chuck it aside and focus on another project.
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Need help with Shuttle SB83G5A - fans spin but that's all

Quote:
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i'm not sure if reflowing a board with a ruptured pad is a wise idea... bad things might happen??
But who says a CPU pad is ruptured?
I've seen brute-force removed BGA chips (like a G92 GPU chip I got with a lot of CPUs), and the chances of the pads getting lifted with the solder are much smaller for Pb-free solder than Pb solder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
just write a note to self with the board and leave it aside until another board comes by.
Not gonna happen.

I've been looking for this board online for years now (since my last post in 2013, actually.) Have not seen the same model of board at all. I did see a few newer and older models that could have fit in there... but the prices they were asking for some of these were ridiculous. More than half of them weren't even advertised as working. $30 or more for a "For parts or repair" motherboard?! - No way, Jose! I ain't buying that!

Also, the board is already in not working condition as it is. Attempting a repair could make it worse, sure - but so what? It's of no use to me in its current condition, anyways. Thus, I might as well attempt to repair it. And if it gets worse or broke "for good", then so be it. Of course, if I can think of a way to fix it without damaging it further, that would be better. So the question is, as noted above, which repair attempt would give better chance of reviving the board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
maybe write,"bad cpu bga and ruptured nb vrm mosfet pad. unable to reflow", as the note.
The ripped MOSFET pad on the NB VRM is not an issue - that's what the blue wire is there for. (i.e. it's connecting the MOSFET's Gate directly to the controller's PWM output, which is how the board is wired anyways - no Gate resistors or anything fancy.)

So really this board had/has 3 issues.
1) Bad caps
2) Bad MOSFET on NB VRM
3) Bad BGA on CPU socket

1) and 2) were there before I got the board, and I already took care of these two. 3) was likely induced by me as a result of the board being stuck to the case, and is the only issue that seems to keep this PC from getting fixed. So I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel here! I just hope the tunnel doesn't crumble in front of me right at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
that should help remembering what happened with this board. until then, just chuck it aside and focus on another project.
Oh, I know what happened to this board very well. It's the only Shuttle board I have, so it's kind of memorable. (Moreover, I actually do remember the work I did on pretty much all of my motherboards.)

Last edited by momaka; 05-04-2019 at 08:37 PM..
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