No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

[bgdavis]

I recently spoke to a number of buyers who work for various tech companies in the US. They know a lot about the "bad cap" problem, but they have a totally different take on why it is happening. From what they've seen, it's not due to some mysterious stolen formula, or substandard methods being used. Rather, it is mostly due to counterfeit parts.

In the last few years, across different shipments from different trusted suppliers from China and Taiwan, the parts they've received were counterfeit. The parts look identical and are nearly impossible to distinguish from real ones. Unknowingly, they've used those parts in their products only to get a rash of unexplained failures. Only after detailed inspection can the counterfeit parts be detected. The suppliers overseas are very frustrated by this problem as it is giving them a bad rep.

What they don't know for sure is where the conterfeits get into the supply chain. It seems likely that someone close to the mfg sites overseas may be swapping the counterfeits in right before shipping, but it could potentially happen later in the shipping process.

The main point here, is that just looking at the brand on your cap doesn't mean diddly. It could easily be a counterfeit part, and there's really no easy way to figure that out.

[kc8adu]

i have seen this with other parts.sanken and toshiba power transistors for power amps.
motorola transistors esp mj150xx types.
it was hell finding a dist. with genuine motorola parts when a customer needed some cnc motor drives rebuilt.they had some counterfiet parts from the last place that rebuilt them.they would run with no load on the motor but under load they went off with a bang!

[Topcat]

Care to show some examples of that? Most known brands of shoddy caps are not counterfeit, they're just crap, which is why they fail. There's a few imposters out there, but nothing market-shattering.

We all know about the rulycon's, which is a Rubycon imposter. However, for the most part, I have not seen a lot of that in the capacitor field.

[bgdavis]

Care to show some examples of that?

As I said, this information isn't first hand, though I have no reason to doubt it. One of the primary companies involved was Nichicon. For the US company, Nichicon has been a very dependable brand.

When the U.S. company started seeing fails, they sent several of the parts back, and that was when the vendor spotted the fakes. The vendor showed the US firm how to tell, on that part at least, if it was legit or not, but I don't have any details.

The US firm then examined the remaining parts they had kept, and sure enough, they were able to see the difference too. It sounded like they can spot something using a microscope. I didn't get all the details, but it may involve cutting into the part - possibly removing the shrink wrap, etc to reveal the difference.

What we do know from this story at least, is that failing Nichicon caps may not be Nichicon's fault.

[kc8adu]

http://www.sound.westhost.com/counterfeit.htm

[Topcat]

http://www.sound.westhost.com/counterfeit.htm

I knew of fake semiconductors for a long time, that was a problem back when I had my service center years ago.

I'd like to see some more proof positive of true cap counterfeiting though, some evidence and credible sources of that would be good to have.

[kc8adu]

it would be interesting if that is what happened to nichicon lately.
please post any info about the ones the mfr. gave instructions about.
i will dig some out of the bucket under the bench and put them under the microscope.

[arneson]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

Mergers, buyouts, companies are bought and sold and that's when the penny pinchers get in there and say lets buy our boron from this mine instead of that mine, so what if it has a little kryptonite in it.
I picture these Fab plants in the middle of nowhere rice patties, cheap or slave labor,
And a big soup pot of bubbling Electrolyte solution. All is good so far until one guy whips it out and pees in the pot. Now you and I have brown goo on a motherboard.
What is that brown gush that comes sperting out?
Welcome to my fantasy.

[Phil_123]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

Like this?

[Per Hansson]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

OMG!

I've never ever in my life seen something like that Phil 123, was it a "genuine fake" if you now can call it that or just a muckup by someone?

[kc8adu]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

put it in a can to contain the explosion!

[linuxguru]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

Is that real? Sure scares the hell out of me - I buy large can-type electrolytics for vintage-audio restoration, and would hate to be conned like that.

[Chris1992]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

yeah, that thing is weird and I would hate to be conned like that. Is the cap a Rubycon or Rulycon? (not clear from pic)

[kc8adu]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

i couldnt tell either.
since that was likely done by the mfr to defraud you can bet its a fake.

[cods69]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

Like this?

That pic is astonishing.
I am dismayed and now even more paranoid.

[gg1978]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

I've seen failed United Chemicon caps on a few of the HP motherboards from the 1Ghz Athlon era. It was always the ones closest to the toroid inductors that would fail first, then more would fail. Maybe those were fakes???

[willawake]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

do you have pics?

[japlytic]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

This picture of a smaller capacitor in a larger can makes me laugh - I could not believe this was done before...

[bobcaygeon]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

when I first saw the pic of the smaller cap in the larger one, the thought that immediately came to mind was it was part of some recap job for an old (ie: tube ) radio.... i've seen where modern electrolytics are placed inside of the old original aluminum caps (which have long since dried out) in order to maintain the aesthetics of the inside of the tube radio. Of course, usually you try to maintain the capacitance and voltage rating of the original... which doesnt appear to be met in this case.... not to mention the fact that the original looks pretty darned modern. :-)

[kc8adu]

Re: No brand is safe due to rampant counterfeiting!

when I first saw the pic of the smaller cap in the larger one, the thought that immediately came to mind was it was part of some recap job for an old (ie: tube ) radio.... i've seen where modern electrolytics are placed inside of the old original aluminum caps (which have long since dried out) in order to maintain the aesthetics of the inside of the tube radio. Of course, usually you try to maintain the capacitance and voltage rating of the original... which doesnt appear to be met in this case.... not to mention the fact that the original looks pretty darned modern. :-)

yes i hide modern caps in the can of the dead originals to keep it looking original.
most were wet electrolytics and the big twistlock cans.
the pic shown is a new type not used in tube gear.
in most vintage stereo gear the caps are usually much bigger.
got a sansui g-33000 i gotta overhaul soon.
gotta love estate sales!