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**POM_MJ** · 11-22-2009, 11:34 AM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

I don't think, caps are problem in this case.
It could be display memory chip (in red rectangle) has some problem.
Just guess.

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**ratdude747** · 11-22-2009, 11:51 AM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

laptops rarely have eletrolytic caps. i doubt caps are the problem.

edit- already said, me fail!

**PCBONEZ** · 11-22-2009, 12:20 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

Sounds more like a corrupted BIOS.
Try re-flashing it even if it's to the same version.
-
Might be a bum keyboard IC chip.
I'm not sure if that chip in the keyboard or on the mobo for that.
-
Please upload images direct to the site. Images on Imageshack and sites like that have a habit of going 'poof' so it makes the thread worthless to people reading it later on.

**mockingbird** · 11-22-2009, 03:23 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

I wouldn't invest any more resources in an NC6000 or an 8000. Not integrated video BTW, It's a Mobility Radeon 9600.

This type of problem is very common, and every day I see 10 new ones for sale somewhere. Stay away from this product line.

The NC4000 is pretty good though.

**kc8adu** · 11-22-2009, 04:21 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

sure nothing has been spilled in it?
i have seen some odd symptoms from spill damage.

**gdement** · 11-22-2009, 08:31 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

Problems occur while typing - that sounds to me like a solder issue. It also sounds similar to faulty GPU problems that were common on some thinkpads when they adopted RoHS, probably common on other makes as well.

If this is a hot-running laptop, then it could be a solder/flexing type of problem which has built up over the numerous heat cycles.

It's odd that it doesn't crash though, just has graphical glitches.
The corrupt text described in one of the pages you linked showed these examples:

qour (your)
t`at (that)
Servaces (Services)
Restgre (Restore)
Eode (Mode)
Wafdows (Windows)
dgeain (domain)

notice that all the corrupt characters are exactly 8 below the correct value in ASCII. It only takes 1 bit to shift values by 8.
So in all those corrupt characters, bit 3 is faulty.
Since it's happening multiple times on screen, that means it's not isolated to 1 memory location. Yet it's always the same bit. So I think it's more likely the D3 signal trace, not the memory itself.

However, that was just the article you linked, not your computer.
The example you gave 'Wondows' doesn't fit that pattern. 'o' is 6 above 'i', which couldn't happen with a single bit error. If that example is something you really saw, then I'm less convinced of the cause.

A glitchy bit in the display memory would appear as corrupt text while in text mode, but in graphical modes (Windows) it would probably cause other artifacts to appear.

Anyway, I don't know how you'd fix this, except to replace the board. If there were exposed solder joints involved, you could try reflowing them, but I bet it's all BGA stuff that you can't touch with an iron.

You could try cleaning the board thoroughly (alcohol and a toothbrush) just in case anything was spilled or if it's some debris causing the glitches.

**PCBONEZ** · 11-23-2009, 12:38 AM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

I think there's a good chance it's a short in the key pad traces or maybe the ribbon cable between it and the mobo is loose or misaligned.
Think of wires running horizontally and vertically such that connecting a combination makes the key.
If you short two vertical wires then all combinations that use -either one- of those wires will be the same output.
-
Try removing the key pad and using an external keyboard without the key pad installed.
If problem goes away there is a good chance all you need is a new key pad or the ribbon cable wasn't aligned properly.
.

**algram** · 11-28-2009, 04:48 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

sorry for not responding for some time, I just was busy with other stuff

Originally posted by PCBONEZ

Sounds more like a corrupted BIOS.
Try re-flashing it even if it's to the same version.
-
Might be a bum keyboard IC chip.
I'm not sure if that chip in the keyboard or on the mobo for that.
-
Please upload images direct to the site. Images on Imageshack and sites like that have a habit of going 'poof' so it makes the thread worthless to people reading it later on.

reflashing didn't work- I was not able to reflash via bios, since there is only one option to do it- I need to insert a 1.44 Floppy. I have no floppy drive in that laptop so I did it via Windows(where was an option of a windows bios setup oin hp.com). But again- no change

Originally posted by kc8adu

sure nothing has been spilled in it?
i have seen some odd symptoms from spill damage.

i think no, I haven't.

Originally posted by gdement

You could try cleaning the board thoroughly (alcohol and a toothbrush) just in case anything was spilled or if it's some debris causing the glitches.

I just did it with alcohol and it gave no iprovement

Originally posted by PCBONEZ

Try removing the key pad and using an external keyboard without the key pad installed.
If problem goes away there is a good chance all you need is a new key pad or the ribbon cable wasn't aligned properly.

I tried booting w/o pointing stick and touchpad connected and the corrupt screen is still present

**kikkoman** · 11-28-2009, 05:19 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

i second POM_MJ's suspicion that it's the VGA memory.
lower the memory clock speed (RivaTuner in windows, no idea what to use in linux) and see if the glitches get better or disappear.

**PCBONEZ** · 11-28-2009, 05:40 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

Not sure it's specifically video memory but I'll third that's a video problem, not keyboard.
.

**Toasty** · 11-28-2009, 06:09 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

Quote- gdement:
"Problems occur while typing - that sounds to me like a solder issue. It also sounds similar to faulty GPU problems that were common on some thinkpads when they adopted RoHS, probably common on other makes as well."

"but I bet it's all BGA stuff that you can't touch with an iron."

Concur. 9500-9800 video chips -AND- memory chips. Seen this on 3 laptops over past 6 months.

Fixed 2 with aluminum foil shielding, laser thermometer, and heat gun. There are several infos out there on doing this to XBox360's. Google - search for "reflow rings of death xbox" and "diy reflow xbox". 3rd one the chip was already toast so board replacement was only option.

Toast

**PCBONEZ** · 11-28-2009, 06:28 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

HP nc8000 uses ATI.

**Toasty** · 11-28-2009, 07:11 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

ATI has no BGA??

Same (Samsung) mem chips.

ATI you have to use a blowtorch on....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oVxGGPdkbc

**PCBONEZ** · 11-28-2009, 08:50 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

A number of nVidea GPU's had major problems with substrate separation which get's confused with the 'normal' BGA you can see from outside the chip if it's removed.
It is more or less BGA arrangement but it's INSIDE the chip 'package' between its layers, not between the overall chip 'package' and the motherboard.
ATI didn't have those problems at all.
.

**PCBONEZ** · 11-28-2009, 08:56 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

Next time you have a CPU sitting on the desk with no mobo look at it and imagine the layers in it's PCB separating.
- THAT is what is happening with nVideo GPUs.
It's not the GPU to mobo connections at all. [Or at least not always.]
.

**Toasty** · 11-28-2009, 11:15 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

@algram -
"Here are some pics:
(I can't upload them to this forum- I select 'insert image' and it only lets me type the image name, it doesn't let me browse for a picture)"

You have to choose the "Go Advanced" button below when "Quick Replying".
In "Advanced" you can choose the "Manage Attachments" button. Then you can upload by browsing.

If you can move them from ImageShack, that is best. ImageShack removes them after 30 to 60 days. No use to the next guy who Google's your problem or anyone else here once they disappear.

If you can get this working with the unit apart, try prodding and pushing on the board with a plastic tool or pen or wooden stick. See if you can make it happen or at least change.

Whether it is BGA related IMO is fairly certain. Attempting to repair it is going to depend on your skill and abilities. Some people have success, some don't, and others just chuck the unit in the crap pile and buy another.

Toast

**algram** · 11-29-2009, 04:52 AM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

what does BGA stand for?
so I may try heating the memory chips w/ foil and a blowtorch? Are the video memory chips those which have a Samsung name on them? (there are 2 of them- just under the copper plate on the middle-left of the board)

I would go for it if it helped. But some calculations on the heating should be done, I think. How do I know what temperature there has to be, or how much foil should I apply on the board so as not to toast it? Is this procedure similar to Xbox's that Toasty suggested me 2 google?

edit: I do have a heatgun at home, so I would try it.

**PCBONEZ** · 11-29-2009, 01:22 PM

Re: Laptop motherboard problem / Replacing capacitors

Ball Grid Array
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

Your GPU is also attached to the motherboard using one so I'm not sure where the confidence it's the video RAM chip vice the GPU comes from unless someone has a history with this model laptop and the RAM BGA separating.
.

.
The similar problem I was talking about with nVidia GPU's.
[I'm harping on it because every tech here should at least be remotely aware of the problem.]
-
That I know of nVidia ate ~$250 million in 2008 and they getting up near near that for 2009 again. Apple, HP, and Dell get all the press but the problem isn't exclusive to them. According to Apple and HP it's also not limited to laptop GPUs as nVidia would have you believe. The problem has actually been around since 2006 or 2007 but early on it was only laptop GPUs and nVidia didn't 'get busted' until 2008.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10196861-64.html
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...hips-defective
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...efective-chips
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...6374/nv-should

Wasn't just laptop GPUs as nVidia claims.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...g92s-defective
http://hothardware.com/News/HP-Sliml...ia-GPU-Defect/
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...-bump-material

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/10/a...chips-faulty/2
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...vidia-55nm-bad

From what I can tell it may affect GeForce 6xxx 'Go' series laptop GPU's, it's definite in GeForce 7xxx 'Go' series laptop GPU's, and some GPUs in the GeForce 8 and 9 series' for both laptops and desktops. [So I understand the desktop G80 chip was okay.]
.

**Toasty** · 11-30-2009, 01:36 AM

No No No !!! No Blowtorch!

<<=== Shakes head... GOOD GRIEF!
>>so I may try heating the memory chips w/ foil and a blowtorch?<<
NO! NO Blowtorch!
That was in jest to PCBONEZ 1 line comment about yours using an ATI chip.

I said -
"Fixed 2 with aluminum foil shielding, laser thermometer, and heat gun. There are several infos out there on doing this to XBox360's. Google - search for "reflow rings of death xbox" and "diy reflow xbox"..."

>>Are the video memory chips those which have a Samsung name on them?<<
Yes. There are 4 there. 128mb each. One more to the left of the upper one under the copper. Another below the right hand under the copper. The GPU is to the left, under the copper, above the CPU.

You MUST have a way of monitoring the heat applied and you must maintain it for a specific amount of time. You also need to ramp-up the temperature a specific amount over a specific time interval and ramp-down the same way. You can't just go blasting away with the heat gun. If you can't do that, you're not likely to get this repaired except by a professional shop that can -ACCURATELY- control the heat applied.

Read and fully understand several articles and view several of the videos on reflowing the Xbox's before you even begin to -think- of attempting this. Any that do not use a temperature ramp-up/down procedure and a non-contact thermometer you can disregard. They will only serve to get you in severe trouble.

If you are not clear on this, I suggest to start looking for a new motherboard or computer. You can pick up used -guaranteed- mobos for this unit on Ebay for ~$100.

Toast

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