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Old 08-13-2021, 07:02 AM   #1
xipxid
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Default BGA Rework Station advice.

Hello,

I search all internet from 2012 until now to buy a BGA Rework Station. Until now I don't find one. I have no money limitation to Chinese ones but... even USA, UK, Germany and so on... "Manufacturers" not convince me.

Can you advice me on this subject ?!

Thank you in advance, Dan
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Old 09-11-2021, 04:45 AM   #2
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

achi pro sc is good
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Old 09-11-2021, 08:17 AM   #3
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h0baz View Post
achi pro sc is good
did you... even read... this posts ?!

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...t=60723&page=3

advice are very easy to give. when somebody say... "Everybody who is incapable of learning has taken to teaching"... Oscar Wilde

Archi Pro SC are a garbage / a junk !!! only a cheap chinees barbeque... are not a BGA Rework Station !

Last edited by xipxid; 09-11-2021 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 09-11-2021, 08:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

What advice are you after if eight years of need and manufacturers/sellers haven't convinced you ? What work are you missing out on ?
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Old 09-11-2021, 09:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diif View Post
What advice are you after if eight years of need and manufacturers/sellers haven't convinced you ? What work are you missing out on ?
let see... from 2012 until now are almost 10 years... of searching. in this time apeare on the market more and more errors, more and more gurus, more an more misunderstandings... more and more nonsenses.

I ask here about a real profesional BGA Rework Station not about all aberrations that I can see all over the internet. it is impossible that the rework process are wrong understand for about... 30 years... or... it is possible ?!

by the way... @diif, I see in your signature that you are "Professional Tech" , almost sure you are convinced about one ore more "BGA Rework Stations", can you recommend me one ?! and if so... can you argue why ?

thank you in advance
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

So it's everyone else's fault you've passed on 9 years of work and experience ?
I don't think there's anything else I'd be able to write that would make any difference.
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
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So it's everyone else's fault you've passed on 9 years of work and experience ?
I don't think there's anything else I'd be able to write that would make any difference.
thank you kindly for your reply, this is my problem... I spend 9 years on waiting that anybody will manufacture a real profesional BGA Rework Station. a BGA Rework Station that respect soldering standards (personally I think that the standards are useless due to the fact that... nobody respect this standards). some images with reflow standards , I'm asking on myself... if the standards are not respected... why this standards exist ?!

another question that I have is... why all manufacturers are lying when all says that the accuracy for the thermocouple K-Type are +/- 1 Celsius degrees when in reality... K-Type thermocouple are worst that +/-5 Celsius degrees ?!

but... I think that I'm wrong...
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Old 09-11-2021, 12:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

You've been using the wrong thermocouples then. I've sold my Honton a few months back but all three thermocouples tracked perfectly with variations less than 2C.
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Old 09-11-2021, 12:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post
You've been using the wrong thermocouples then. I've sold my Honton a few months back but all three thermocouples tracked perfectly with variations less than 2C.

thank you Th3_uN1Qu3 , if you look here... I reply to you at the end of the last post... https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...t=60723&page=3.

when you... tell me that the Honton read the temperature with +/- 1 celsius degrees... I can tell you that you are wrong. the science that are in back of the K-Type thermocouple technology say "Standard Limit of errors K-Type -200° to 1250°C (-328° to 2282°F) Greater of 2.2°C
or 0.75% - Special limit of errors - Greater of 1.1°C or 0.4%
" and this is in theory... in practice never ever you will have more than +/- 5 Celsius degrees accuracy ! and this is only... the thermocouple. I'm sure that you know that ALL bi metalic thermocouple technology it have what is name it cold and hot junctions (unions)... well you need to compensate the cold junction closest as posible where physically are, if not compensate this... you will have the error = with the ambiental difference temperature . well in the Honton garbage... I see the classical 2 wire K-type yellow connector. this connector are with 2 pins... to compensate here the temperature you need at least 4 pins

you are only another victim of credulity, and this generate "pseudo science" when the electronics it have an his basics... the science !

by the way, do you have an image with a profile that you realize with your Honton ?! I'm sure that it is... best that this profile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zr9ctn501M
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Old 09-11-2021, 01:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

I am far past the age where I feel like I have something to prove. The Honton served me well and it serves its new owner just as well. I've also helped a number of people get their station set up along the years.

Hot air stations are more stable than IR ones and their temperature monitoring is more accurate due to their physical operating principles. Even if the metering is 5C off it doesn't matter when you're at least 15C away from the maximum allowed temperature of the BGA.
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Old 09-11-2021, 04:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post
I am far past the age where I feel like I have something to prove. The Honton served me well and it serves its new owner just as well. I've also helped a number of people get their station set up along the years.

Hot air stations are more stable than IR ones and their temperature monitoring is more accurate due to their physical operating principles. Even if the metering is 5C off it doesn't matter when you're at least 15C away from the maximum allowed temperature of the BGA.
let see... I'm '53 years old, 35 years of service in electronic field, the real electronics give me and my family to eat, house, cars, money for education for 2 universities for my daughter etc. fortunately for me my profession is my hobby ! the electronics field from my point of view deserve respect. if somebody respect the electronic are a real profesional in electronic field. equal that a pro is in R&D, in production, in service etc. a real pro KNOW, MEASURE, INTERPRET in a scientific manner... let say... parameters. a real pro... NOT SUPPOSE nothing SUPPOSE is for pseudo science. and pseudo science are not electronics !!!

for example"

K-type thermocouple - this type of thermocouple you will see it in high temperature kilns (for glass, ceramics and so on) where the accuracy is NOT IMPORTANT. but... when in a standard it say... 250 Celsius degrees you need to KNOW, MEASURE with accuracy this temperature. why ?! simply... if you are over this temperature with 20 - 30 Celsius degrees... you are burned a BGA, if you are under this temperature with 20-30 degrees Celsius... well you don't solder this BGA. this variation 40-60 Celsius degrees seems to be huge, incredible. well on youtube are plenty of videos where the ambient temperature that is measured with this K-Type thermocouple are 54-56 Celsius degrees. even I have in past an experience when a new thermocouple give me 30 Celsius degrees in the ambient (real was 21 Celsius degrees) and after that I heating at 800 Celsius degrees the thermocouple give me 55 Celsius degrees in ambient temperature. from this moment never ever I use a K-Type thermocouple. I use the T-Type thermocouple with special limit of errors (not in BGA Rework Stations, in temperature measurement in general).

Honton, I speak from MY point of view - it is the second worst approach for a BGA Rework. why ?!

1 - hot air - worst ever possible approach, huge inertia, low energy transfer (Thermal conductivity at 0°C and 1 bara: 24.35 mW/(m K) = 0.02094 kcal(IT)/(h m K) = 0.01407 Btu(IT)/(h ft °F)) in fact the AIR are near perfect thermal insulator. hot air need to be heated with 100-150 Celsius degrees more that you need to be at BGA level !!! this give to a temperature sensitive components the possibility to absorb what he want from this... 350-400 Celsius degrees !!!
2 - K-Type thermocouples, contact thermocouples, imprecise.
3 - 3 zone heating system, worst ever possible, if you heat the PCB from bottom at 250 Celsius degrees the PCB will dilatate, will expand and... will double / bend, and you will have a round superficie to solder a plane BGA.
4 - bottom infrared heaters... well... this... infrared... this infrared can be separated in few... parts / spectrums. NIR (Near Infrared spectrum), MWIR (Medium Wave IR spectrum) and LWIR (Long Wave IR spectrum). well the bottom heater used in this chinees garbage... work in LWIR, LWIR have a huge inercia, low range of energy radiation, in fact... this bottom heaters act more like direct temperature transfer with convection principle not IR radiation ! this result in almost NO CONTROL !
5 - fixed PCB support. well... when you heat a PCB... the PCB will dilatate / expand, if your support are fixed... well... the PCB will bend and result in a curved superficie to mount a plane BGA.
6 - temperature control... well... here is simple... you have ... NO CONTROL ! this bullshit Chinese controllers used CAN'T control this worst ever system, in fact... are used for another general purposed... high temperature kilns !!! where the accuracy are not important !

this are short explanation for why from my point of view the Honton are only a cheap Chinese garbage. but... don't worry... Chinese people only... copy / paste the errors that westerns "traditional (with 30, 34, 80 years of "BGA Rework experience") manufacturers" makes !!! look ERSA (another garbage but... with highest price...) and so on...

well... our Chinese guys say... if the western manufacture and sell this with $3000 they can manufacture and sell same thing with... $600 and it have reason. but this does not prevent us to THINK ! we can buy this Honton garbage due to his lowest price NOT because are a... Real Professional BGA Rework Station.

best like this garbage (and cheaper) are a barbeque, and over all... if we will destroy a PCB and a BGA... well... we don't send the barbeque to the garbage... we will use that to make a real... meat on... barbeque !

P.S. BTW... be ignorant can be a quality... when you have 5 years old... but at a time... we need to leave the ignorance and THINK, thinking not hurt ! the "traditional manufacturers + the rest of the world (China, India Taiwan and so on...)" claim that it selling until now about... 30.000 - 50.000 pcs of garbage's ! personally I think that now in the world are more than 100.000 garbage's. what a beautiful world !

Last edited by xipxid; 09-11-2021 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 09-12-2021, 05:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Oh this is such a mess. FYI my Honton profiles had the BGA temperature at exactly what the top heater was running at. As for fixed PCB supports, no one says you can't leave them a little loose, which I always did.

I never said that German tools like Ersa don't do a better job, however they are out of reach of most shops, while me and the guy who bought it off me could afford a Honton station for personal use. Also, since you mentioned Ersa, did you know that they developed IR as a cheaper alternative to their professional hot air stations? Apparently not. Hot air is the superior technology for BGA rework - after all, the boards are soldered in an oven at the factory!

And if you say a PC410 is an inadequate controller for this job, you probably haven't taken the time to program one properly.

Last edited by Th3_uN1Qu3; 09-12-2021 at 05:57 AM..
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post
Oh this is such a mess. FYI my Honton profiles had the BGA temperature at exactly what the top heater was running at. As for fixed PCB supports, no one says you can't leave them a little loose, which I always did.

I never said that German, English, USA and so on tools like Ersa don't do a better job, however they are out of reach of most shops, while me and the guy who bought it off me could afford a Honton station for personal use. Also, since you mentioned Ersa, did you know that they developed IR as a cheaper alternative to their professional hot air stations? Apparently not. Hot air is the superior technology for BGA rework - after all, the boards are soldered in an oven at the factory!

And if you say a PC410 is an inadequate controller for this job, you probably haven't taken the time to program one properly.
you understand wrong, I don't say that the German (Ersa, PDR, Metcal and so on...) perform better, I say that this German garbage perform EGUALLY BAD like the Chinees garbage !!!

WHAT I SAY IS THAT WITH WHAT YOU HAVE IN TODAY MARKET YOU HAVE NO CONTROL ABOUT THE REWORK PROCESS !!! WHAT I SAY IS THAT YOU CAN PAY SMAAL AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR A POPCORN MACHINE OR... HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR A POPCORN MACHINE.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND ?!

SHOW ME A MACHINE THAT CAN MAKE IN TODAYS DEAYS THIS REWORK PROFILE... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zr9ctn501M, on top heater you have +/- 0.5 Celsius degrees error, NIST traceable and on bottom heater you have +/- 2 degrees NIST traceable, paired with time...

about what we speak... here ?!

my good... professional = hot air... HOT AIR = GARBAGE = POPCORN MACHINE !!!

Last edited by xipxid; 09-12-2021 at 09:14 AM..
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:36 AM   #14
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

My profiles can only make barbecue. No popcorn. Also there seems to be some popcorn stuck in your caps lock key.
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Old 09-12-2021, 11:00 AM   #15
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

let see guy, here we are speaking about BGA Rework Stations, when you have a popcorn machine or barbeque machine... congratulations... but you are in a wrong place, you understand nothing about BGA Rework Stations, you understand nothing about Rework Process, you understand nothing about science, you understand nothing about forums subjects, you understand nothing about... life in general but... this is your problem. with your actitud you you only go in the fake's guru's twilight zone. I don't know if anybody need more fake's guru's... don't you think that are enough on internet ?!

I ask you please, to leave unpolite things an be civilized, an if you can / want to learn something from this subject you are welcomed. if not I ask you with respect to leave this subject alone because it is possible that another user are interested.

now I will tell same thing in Romanian... it is possible that the guy will understand how ridiculous are here and on another subjects where seems to be... another GURU.

....

Last edited by SMDFlea; 09-12-2021 at 11:59 AM.. Reason: non english
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xipxid View Post
now I will tell same thing in Romanian... it is possible that the guy will understand how ridiculous are here and on another subjects where seems to be... another GURU.
....
This is an english language forum, if you must insult members please do so in english.Also typing in capital letters is considered SHOUTING on forums.

.

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Old 09-12-2021, 01:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

BGA Rework Stations... choosing one...

It was French philosopher Claude Lévi-Strauss who once said: "The scientist is not a person who gives the right answers, he is one who asks the right questions."

I mention that all what I write here is my opinions.

Well... choosing a BGA Rework Station for our laboratory seems to be an easy task. Seems that are enough to choose our budget, read some information on internet (here Google are NOT our best friend) that give us some... GURU's, find the best price for what we think (GURU's suggested) that are "professional, expert, cheap, best, hot air, black infrared - sound good, best price, automatic, used and so on... "

Well... nothing more wrong.

When we start searching information's to buy our "DREAM" BGA Rework Station on internet, we find a huge amount of information's, information that come from "Traditional manufacturers" that claim 30 years, 35 years, 80 years and so on... experience in soldering, in rework process, in BGA Rework Stations. Some of them claim "rewards", another of them claim "Reference included by huge components manufacturers (Xilinx for example)". Paralel with the "tradicional" manufacturer's we find the cheaper (Chinese, Indian, Taiwan, South Corea and so on... included home made ) manufacturers. Seems that we need only fix the budget and all are done.

Well... nothing more wrong.

We are awaiting that behind of our tools manufacturers are science / scientist, like behind of Fluke, Tektronix, JBC and so on that study, understand for him and for us this magic world of electronics. We are waiting that scientist identify, know, study, research an present to us solutions based on scientific conclusions to our needs.

Well... nothing more wrong.

As a heard, we follow this recommendations, like we follow the Coca Cola, tabaco, booking, flying and so on, publicity. Our reason that put us out from the animals species are death, are anihílate / controlled buy this HUGE amount of information's and we are incapable to ask us... "All them... are... they right ?!". Many... but many "victims" of these information buy this products and after... well after came the problems, came the "Rework Process Success Rate", came affirmations like "worst ever manufactured BGA" and so on, came the... real problems !

All above are the right approach to buy a Real BGA Rework Station ?!
Well... nothing more wrong.

When you plan to use a BGA Rework Station on the low cost environment, for example TV repair, laptop / computers board repair... well you can experiment all the popcorn machines that are in the market. But when you plan to use it in a highly cost environment like me (I repair with a rework a board that I win $1500 or when you plan to rework a $50.000 Xilinx or a $90.000 Intel or on big series works), well... here the word "experiment" are not permitted. In this case we need an "scientific, argumentative, secure Rework Process".

In this case, when a manufacturer say +/-1 Celsius degrees temperature control, we need a NIST traceable certificate (or another standard certificate) that prove this affirmation ! When a manufacturer say "Hot air rework system are best that black IR"... well... we need a proof for this (nor hot air nor black ir are good for rework). When a manufacturer say... fixed support (worst approach) we need a proof, an argument for this affirmation. If a manufacturer say "black IR bottom heaters or quartz heaters" we need a proof and a reason why this is the best approach.

When we accept manufacturer's affirmations without any proof, scientific arguments, scientific reason... we are only a heard of credulity animals with selective trust inoculated in our mind.

Well.. For me is clear like water that behind all garbage's that are in the market at this moment don't exist scientist / science! Don't exist professionalism, don't exist knowledge, don't exist standards, don't exist truth.

That truly exist are lying's, disinformation, association of "success words" like professional, expert, perfect, rework profile, industrial, automatic and so on, curses for that you buy $1.500 for a day of curse to learn... nothing. Exist price fighting's, exist cheating, exist awards, exist reference included, all this you can encounter them on internet.

But for this we need to think. We need to think that if we are not well documented, we are not well informed, we are not questioning what all manufacturers says... Well... we will pay. All over the world are many, many guys that pay, many guys that think that with a Chinese garbage that can buy with $500 will make some millions of dollars. Now are crying on various forums. All over the internet you will find guys that his company spent $60.000 or $110.000, yes... and crying. Not exist the miracle, the holly grail with the technology used in todays days.

What I avoid when I search a BGA Rework Station (what I avoid in past, now I don't need a BGA Rework Station, I have two ). What I write here are for your knowledge if you think that I have reason.

1 - Hot air / hot gas / hot nitrogen - huge inercia, incontrolable heat medium transfer. None PID can have a real control about this medium with the speed that is needed to make a rework. The air / gas / nitrogen need to be heated with 100-150 Celsius degrees more that the PCB / BGA need. This is bad, I explain above why.

2 - Ceramic heaters (black / white / Elstein and so on...). It work in LWIR, it have a huge inercia, low range of LWIR radiation (you need to use it closest posible to PCB / BGA) in fact the heating are made it with direct heat transfer not by IR.

3 - K-Type thermocouples - contact type of sensor = bad, imprecise I explain above, instable - after a while read completely wrong the temperature.

4 - Chinese controllers, are not made it for this purpose, don't have implemented software for this purpose, you can't control the graph from computer, you only can see what is happening.

5 - Fixed Board support - bad, don't let the board to dilatate and will bend with temperature.

6 - Fake's guru's - worst ever species on internet.

And... what I can buy ?! Nothing.

Look with attention in internet in the future, soon will be live 3 or 4 website and it is possible that you can find something that really respect the BGA rework process.

@SMDFlea, I'm sorry for the Romanian language, btw I don't consider that insult anybody.

P.S. Please do not forget, ask the right questions !
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Old 09-12-2021, 01:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

You can buy nothing that fits your purposes because your requirements are impossible to fulfill. You must be delusional, since I, on Chinese manufactured goods that you seem to hate, was able to develop a profile that I can run whether I was in my best shape or upset or drunk or high, and it would still deliver the same end result - a working board.
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Old 09-12-2021, 03:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post
You can buy nothing that fits your purposes because your requirements are impossible to fulfill. You must be delusional, since I, on Chinese manufactured goods that you seem to hate, was able to develop a profile that I can run whether I was in my best shape or upset or drunk or high, and it would still deliver the same end result - a working board.
No sir, my fulfills are not impossible to achieve, we achieve a near to perfect (+/- 0.5 Celsius degrees for top heater and +/- 2 Celsius degrees for bottom heater). I repeate, here you have the proof. (removed by moderator)
If you have some proofs for that you write here, please upload a link or an attachment with your proof. Until you upload a proof please let me to ignore you. I understand, you are the guru.


BTW, I don't hate nobody particularly, not Chinees, not westerns... simply nobody. But... https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94509... I'm sure that the guy...soon... will start to hate... a somebody.

Last edited by SMDFlea; 09-18-2021 at 03:33 AM..
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Old 09-18-2021, 07:32 AM   #20
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Default Re: BGA Rework Station advice.

Here is my take on part of this discussion is this and I could be completely wrong with this

But if you can not control temperature correctly then what good is any device and what even worse is if a manufacturer claims that you can control a device in an expectable range and it can not do what it claims to be able to do then it garbage and should be treated according

This is the reason I have not bought a preheater or anything pertaining to doing this type of ic chip replacement is because of what I have read in different place so I am not going to tell you that I am an expert on this subject but I would have to agree with you on one point and that if you can not control the temperature accurately then the device is nothing better than garbage

And to me there is nothing worse than having to guess what the temperature of something is if it real important that device does not exceed the parameters because you are just asking for issues trying to fix something

Now how do you determine how much lead way you have on how much heat you can apply to a given circuit board and how do you only apply heat where it is needed to remove the ic chip in question

I also know that all you that have replied to this post have some real world experience but do me and everyone else that is reading this post a favor please note that this is based on your own experience and not what you have read on the subject this would help a lot
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All of these had CAPs POOF
All of the mosfet that are taken out by bad caps

Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 09-18-2021 at 07:49 AM..
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