The 2018 Operating System thread

[Per Hansson]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I may be making the move to 10 on many of my systems down the road, but due to cost (unless they make it a free upgrade), no reason to spend money on it.

AFAIK, the 'upgrade from 7' trick still works:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...70&postcount=7

SLIC died with windows 8 (other than server 2012). OEM 8/8.1/10 systems have the individual license key embedded in the UEFI. Also, three of my workstations are not SLIC'd (incompatible BIOS).

SLIC is still alive and well, version 2.4 is used by Server 2016.
(Now there is even a valid key on MDL for it!)

And I don't understand the messages about SLIC this or not.
When you perform the upgrade from Win7 to Win10 you get a digital entitlement license:
It's valid for your hardware with no time limit what so ever.

As for complaining that it's not free, well you had a full year when it was released.
And then following that they offered it for "assistive technologies" with no requirements what so ever (mouse and keyboard would qualify).
That ended December 31, making it two and a half years.

But as Topcat linked above that activation method might still work, if not, well, you have really given up the right to complain after all this time

[ratdude747]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

But, the problem there was not differentiating the license keys between 8S and 8P. I.e., if the BIOS only has a valid key for "8S" then simply acquiring install media for 8P wouldn't be sufficient to upgrade/replace it with 8P.



I don't see how "serializing" the BIOS on each machine prevents piracy as one can still copy a legitimate BIOS from a "model 12345" to another "model 12345" and end up with a valid license. You have to require a centralized repository to verify that the license hasn't already been activated. Or, lock down the BIOS so it can't be altered (e.g., tie it to some other "unique" datum that the software can examine and that can't be altered by the hacker)

[For example, the MCUs in my devices have unique serial numbers that are folded into the signatures for the operating firmware. If you try to use an image from one device in another device, it won't POST.]

You're missing the point. Each system has a unique key valid for one install. No two systems have the same key. The UEFI updates do not contain a key, although raw ROM file mods can transfer it. Even you did, you would fail activation as would whatever you pulled it from as now the key has been used twice. It's no different than the SLIC-era OEM stickers with keys (for non-SLIC use) printed; this is why there is no key on the windows 8 and later stickers as that copy's key is in the firmware, not on a separate sticker.

I think this is partially why they moved from BIOS to UEFI...

[goontron]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Plan9, Solaris x86 (Open Indiana), various BSD's, many Linux flavours, KolibriOS, and Android (is not Linux.. Anymore).

Oh, and a Win7 VM I spool up occasionally.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

You're missing the point. Each system has a unique key valid for one install. No two systems have the same key.

No two systems FROM THE FACTORY have the same key. But, what's to stop me from copying the "ROM" image from my Model 12345, S/N 111111 to a second Model 12345, S/N 222222? The code (and key) don't know that they are copies of the original -- unless there is something else unique to the computer that is NOT copied in this process.

OR, a centralized activation server that notes that license ABCDE has already been activated on Model 12345, S/N 111111.

The UEFI updates do not contain a key, although raw ROM file mods can transfer it. Even you did, you would fail activation as would whatever you pulled it from as now the key has been used twice.

This implies that there is a centralized activation server that has global knowledge of EVERY machine running the OS; that new machines MUST "phone home" at least once in their life. Otherwise, there is no way for S/N 222222 to know that it is running with the same "license key" that S/N 111111 was issued (unless the two machines can talk to each other and "compare notes").

[IIRC, Sun ran such a service on a high port (6000?) to look for duplicate licenses ON THE SAME NETWORK.]

Said another way, you'd not be able to run such an OS on an air-gapped system because the license validation software within the OS would complain that it could never "phone home".

It's considerably harder to design licensing schemes that can operate in the absence of such connectivity. Esp if you want/need to "mass produce" licensed devices.

[hikaruichijo]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I don't have anything really against any OS, I always try to use the one that better suits my needs in that moment, because of that, I have different computers with different OSs for certain tasks.
My router has pfsense (BSD) installed because it does just what I want from it.
Got tired of W10 on my laptop because of the continuous updates that take much time, and it is not a celeron, is an Alienware with an i7 but every two or three days W10 took 20 minutes of my time to install updates and that is a bigger problem than the fact that I can't change the keyboard leds color in Linux but that may change in the future, this world is changing every day and that part is one of my favorites, always moving forward, this year is Linux, maybe the next year it will be Haiku, maybe...

[ratdude747]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

No two systems FROM THE FACTORY have the same key. But, what's to stop me from copying the "ROM" image from my Model 12345, S/N 111111 to a second Model 12345, S/N 222222? The code (and key) don't know that they are copies of the original -- unless there is something else unique to the computer that is NOT copied in this process.

OR, a centralized activation server that notes that license ABCDE has already been activated on Model 12345, S/N 111111.

When both systems phone home with the same key, MS will call the foul. If you just move the key and system 1 is never run with the key, it *should* work.

This implies that there is a centralized activation server that has global knowledge of EVERY machine running the OS; that new machines MUST "phone home" at least once in their life. Otherwise, there is no way for S/N 222222 to know that it is running with the same "license key" that S/N 111111 was issued (unless the two machines can talk to each other and "compare notes").

[IIRC, Sun ran such a service on a high port (6000?) to look for duplicate licenses ON THE SAME NETWORK.]

Said another way, you'd not be able to run such an OS on an air-gapped system because the license validation software within the OS would complain that it could never "phone home".

It's considerably harder to design licensing schemes that can operate in the absence of such connectivity. Esp if you want/need to "mass produce" licensed devices.

Yup. That be MS. It's been that way since XP IIRC... all machines phone home when activated and any time something happens that requires re-activation (different CPU or chipset, for example). Not sure if the newer ones phone home at every update or even sooner, but doubling a key won't work long term, that's for sure.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

When both systems phone home with the same key, MS will call the foul. If you just move the key and system 1 is never run with the key, it *should* work.

So, the OS requires on-line activation? E.g., that has been an option for many versions. But, none of my boxes have ever been "on-line" -- yet they all happily run as if activated (using Dell/HP install disks).

There are some nuisance issues (like getting rid of the "first run" screen in IE) but none that aren't trivial to work around.

I know that if I try to install on a non-Dell/HP machine, the installer prompts for a S/N (but, all of my machines are HP or Dell so its not a problem).

Yup. That be MS. It's been that way since XP IIRC... all machines phone home when activated and any time something happens that requires re-activation (different CPU or chipset, for example). Not sure if the newer ones phone home at every update or even sooner, but doubling a key won't work long term, that's for sure.

I do off-line installation of updates (again, the machines NEVER talk to the outside world so there is no possibility of malware creeping in). And, I rarely bother trying to upgrade hardware; it's easier to just replace the entire machine!

(I had previously considered upgrading an XP box to 7even and discovered that a S/N would be required -- the XP box being too old to contain the license key for 7even. So, just opted to replace the entire machine with one that was "ready" to run 7even.)

The machines may be talking to each other, "comparing notes", but each thinks it has been correctly and legally activated (the CoA's attest to that)

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I don't have anything really against any OS, I always try to use the one that better suits my needs in that moment, because of that, I have different computers with different OSs for certain tasks.

Ditto. In my case, it started out as one of simple logistics -- getting all the applications and peripherals to work on ONE machine was a maintenance nightmare. And, many peripherals really need to be physically seperated because of the space they take up (e.g., a B-size scanner and a 12x18" digitizing tablet effectively eat up an entire desktop -- so, where do you put the film scanner, motion controller, video digitizer, pen plotter, etc.?)

Then, I realized the added beauty of NOT having to update all of these apps just because one app forced me to upgrade the OS.

And, the value of being able to cling to older, PAID FOR peripherals instead of having to scrap them because a more modern driver doesn't exist.

My router has pfsense (BSD) installed because it does just what I want from it.

I like FOSS tools because I can hack the sources and make them work as I want them to work. Or, fix problems without having to wait for some developer to decide that MY problem is important enough to him -- and, hope that when he opts to fix it, he hasn't broken something else that I rely upon!

"Closed" tools force me to live with their shortcomings. So, the tool has to do a lot for me in order to coerce me to adapt to it!

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

AFAIK, the 'upgrade from 7' trick still works:

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...70&postcount=7

This method does still work. I just did a test of it on the X7DCA I'm tinkering with.

[ratdude747]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

This method does still work. I just did a test of it on the X7DCA I'm tinkering with.

I see. I may try it on one of mine... Maybe the Irwindale. Oldest Xeon Platform that will run it (Nocona and older had no NX bit.)

[ratdude747]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Scratch the Irwindales. Apparently NX bit isn't the only CPU-specific requirement:



Not sure if Windows 8.1 cares about those... Or if 940 Opterons are supported. Edit- Yup, 8.1 requires them too. But only for x64... Gee, that's helpful. X32 on a 16GB RAM system On the upside, anything newer than Netburst (or AMD64, Both were originally things AMD has in the Opteron) has them, so only my old Irwindales (or Paxvilles, for that matter) are hit.

Oh well, Windows 7 it is (if it wasn't a living room rig, perhaps I'd arch x64 it and call it a day).

[junktv]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

No multiple choice. The poll fails.

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Scratch the Irwindales. Apparently NX bit isn't the only CPU-specific requirement:



Not sure if Windows 8.1 cares about those... Or if 940 Opterons are supported. Edit- Yup, 8.1 requires them too. But only for x64... Gee, that's helpful. X32 on a 16GB RAM system On the upside, anything newer than Netburst (or AMD64, Both were originally things AMD has in the Opteron) has them, so only my old Irwindales (or Paxvilles, for that matter) are hit.

Oh well, Windows 7 it is (if it wasn't a living room rig, perhaps I'd arch x64 it and call it a day).

Saw that coming. 8 will run on that, 8.1 will not.

[stj]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

No multiple choice. The poll fails.

not really, it says "your PRIMARY o.s,"
not "every o.s. you have"
otherwise it would get silly these days - with all the fones,tablets,routers, refrigerators, dildo's etc!!

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

not really, it says "your PRIMARY o.s,"
not "every o.s. you have"
otherwise it would get silly these days - with all the fones,tablets,routers, refrigerators, dildo's etc!!

Indeed.

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I'm getting to the point that I can't stand XP anymore slow booting

XP's prefetch sometimes gets in a confused state. The east fix is this:

Delete all files in C:\Windows\Prefetch, then reboot and let it sit, then reboot, rinse and repeat the sitting at desktop and rebooting, a total of three times... Windows will rebuild the prefetch data.

This issue can also occur with Vista and later!

[momaka]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

You beat me to it....I was going to create this thread tonight.

I have 7 hour advantage in the time zone I'm currently in.

What about OS's that aren't in your list?

Sorry, I pretty much copied the poll from last year's thread. I figured it made sense to be consistent.

I fixed the last option to reflect a little more unix/linux variety....the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Thanks.

I guess we need to have more choices next year.

No multiple choice. The poll fails.

not really, it says "your PRIMARY o.s,"
not "every o.s. you have"
otherwise it would get silly these days - with all the fones,tablets,routers, refrigerators, dildo's etc!!

stj nailed it. Things will get too messy if the poll allowed multiple choice. So for simplicity, just pick one choice.

FWIW, I'm getting to the point that I can't stand XP anymore....the blocky fonts, slow booting, and most of all; lack of support. When it comes to retro systems, Win2k w/USP5.1 beats XP by leaps & bounds!

I'm the opposite when it comes to fonts - I very much dislike all of the blurry fonts introduced in Windows Vista and newer. Whenever I setup a Win7 PC for myself, I always spend a good amount of time playing with ClearType to adjust the font looks to make them more XP-like. Then again, I'm still mostly using CRTs, so perhaps that's why. ClearType (bluriness) is really not needed on a CRT. But for LCDs, I suppose it is needed (though again, I myself still prefer fonts to be more "chunky").

In regard to XP slow booting... whaaaaaat? All of my Windows 7 PCs boot much slower than my XP boxes - even when I set up a modern quad-core rig with lots of RAM. The only exception is an old Dell Dimension 3000 PC with a 32-bit Windows 7 Starter/Home - for some reason, that one boots much faster than anything else I have. And what's even more puzzling is that the OS is installed on an old 20 GB Seagate 7200.7 HDD.

On the other hand, I've never had a fast-booting Windows 2000 PC.

I am tired of Windows updates that take forever and these reboots that leave the computer useless by doing so.

So turn off updates and your problems will be solved.
I can't remember the last time I updated any of my Windows OSes. A good HOSTS file and a decent hardware firewall will keep most bad malware away.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

No multiple choice. The poll fails.

Exactly. Primary = most important (?)

I suspect most folks would consider their PHONES to be "more important" (as in, "if I had to live with just one of these, which would it be?") than their COMPUTERS -- yet the poll would lead them to thinking in terms of the latter!

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

In regard to XP slow booting... whaaaaaat? All of my Windows 7 PCs boot much slower than my XP boxes - even when I set up a modern quad-core rig with lots of RAM.

That's why Topcat needs to reset his prefetch!

And Windows 7 beta, build 7000, seemed to be faster than RTM'ed Windows 7!

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

win7 on a half decent CPU + SSD, even a fresh XP install cant touch that! Lack of support is the biggest strike against XP IMO (mainly browsers). I still have an XP system in my fleet, which runs stuff that won't run on anything newer....like Nero6.x, transmac, and some other stuff....and its not that often I use that trusty OS anymore. It was definitely a trooper, but sadly, the sun has set on it for mainstream use.