Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

[djmukilteo]

Hi all, new to the forum and this is a pretty old motherboard.
But it's something I just felt like futzin with. I bought it brand new back in 05-06 with an AMD FX-60.
It just will not post, no video, no beeps, nothing. The CPU, PSU are both known good everything else besides the mobo was tested on another A8NE-FM Socket 939 board. I had 4Gb (1x4Gb) Corsair XMS RAM in dual channel pairs in it originally but found one stick was bad via Memtest86.
The remaining 3 sticks of RAM along with a EVGA 7600GT video card have also been fully tested as good.
After reading many articles about bad caps and joining this forum for some insight, I've pondered recapping it. I did test all the brown electrolytic and found some that read correct and some that did not give any reading?
This was all tested in circuit so I'm wondering if there may be other issues with this board and not worth the time?
This is all only for fun and something to do not like I need it....but it would be nice to get it back up and going if a recap would do the trick.
Looking for anyones insight on this particualr board or similiar ASUS model...
Thanks for listening

[Dan81]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

One question: Did the caps you tested had KZG printed on them?

If yes,then replace them. Those tend to go bad without bloating.

[selldoor]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Hi - I replaced the bulging KZG caps on my A8N SLI deluxe.
Just used panasonic FR (probably not low enough esr )as didnt want to spend too much money on it and I had some of those. Actually against all my own advice, I just replaced the bulging ones and none of the small ones - dont think I could handle replacing all those . It has been on and running for a few weeks now but doesnt really get under pressure gaming.

There are a few parts of your post I dont understand?

the mobo was tested on another A8NE-FM Socket 939 board. - You mean cpu was tested?

I had 4Gb (1x4Gb) Corsair XMS RAM in dual channel pairs in it originally but found one stick was bad via Memtest86. - you mean 4 x 1Gb?

It is probably best not to use 3 sticks - just use 2 sticks and check which sockets
you can use.
Good luck - mine did not boot at first but it had been off for a year before I got to looking at it. Hopefully just replaceing the KZGs will fix it.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

One question: Did the caps you tested had KZG printed on them?

If yes,then replace them. Those tend to go bad without bloating.

Thanks for the reply Dan81....for some reason my profile didn't have me subscribed and instant notification for replies to this thread, so I'm just now finding out someone replied...hehe. All fixed now!

Yes all the brown colored electrolytic caps are KZG. None of them show any signs of bulging or failure but I might as well replace them like you said. Having trouble finding the same diameter for the two 1800uf 6.3V (8x20). Replacements all seem to be 10mm dia now no 8mm and they're stacked right next to each other. iS there a good brand to use for these?

I'm also looking at these 6 silver can caps around the CPU socket. I think these are polymer caps and 820uf/2.5V, but no idea what brand or what the 614 and 615 on the top means. Should I replace those as well? If so what type?
Something else I've noticed is the electrolytic caps which gave no reading (OL) measured in circuit are all right next to the 2 Nvidia chipsets.
I suspect those may have failed from the extreme heat off those chips. I'm also considering trying the baking or heat gun method on those Nvidia chips.
So I have two theories, bad caps or bad chipsets that need reflows.

Just to reiterate the symptoms...the fans all come on, green LED on board is lit solid but absolutely nothing on screen, no BIOS, no beeps....nothing.
I've tested the PSU, CPU (FX-60), EVGA video card and RAM on a A8NE-FM mobo and confirmed all work perfectly fine.
Any suggestions would be welcome....I would really like to resurrect this board.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Hi - I replaced the bulging KZG caps on my A8N SLI deluxe.
Just used panasonic FR (probably not low enough esr )as didnt want to spend too much money on it and I had some of those. Actually against all my own advice, I just replaced the bulging ones and none of the small ones - dont think I could handle replacing all those . It has been on and running for a few weeks now but doesnt really get under pressure gaming.

There are a few parts of your post I dont understand?

the mobo was tested on another A8NE-FM Socket 939 board. - You mean cpu was tested?

I had 4Gb (1x4Gb) Corsair XMS RAM in dual channel pairs in it originally but found one stick was bad via Memtest86. - you mean 4 x 1Gb?

It is probably best not to use 3 sticks - just use 2 sticks and check which sockets
you can use.
Good luck - mine did not boot at first but it had been off for a year before I got to looking at it. Hopefully just replaceing the KZGs will fix it.

Sorry selldoor that was 4 x 1Gb....
and yes I meant CPU tested on another mobo.
I am using just 2 sticks now.
I'll probably test the A8N32 with just one stick for now.
All those small caps around the audio chipset area seem fine and gave a reading close to their value. About 7 of those 820uf 6.3V and the two 1800uf 6.3V gave no reading at all...so I'm torn and might just replace those. I don't really feel like spending a bunch of $$
So replace caps first?....or bake the board first and see if it's the Nvidia chipset?
Probably have to do both!

[Dan81]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Thanks for the reply Dan81....for some reason my profile didn't have me subscribed and instant notification for replies to this thread, so I'm just now finding out someone replied...hehe. All fixed now!

Yes all the brown colored electrolytic caps are KZG. None of them show any signs of bulging or failure but I might as well replace them like you said. Having trouble finding the same diameter for the two 1800uf 6.3V (8x20). Replacements all seem to be 10mm dia now no 8mm and they're stacked right next to each other. iS there a good brand to use for these?

I'm also looking at these 6 silver can caps around the CPU socket. I think these are polymer caps and 820uf/2.5V, but no idea what brand or what the 614 and 615 on the top means. Should I replace those as well? If so what type?

The 1800uf 6.3v KZGs can be replaced with Sanyo WG caps and Rubycon MCZ/MBZ for the 820uf ones.

And for the polymers, don't worry, those won't go bad,so no need to replace 'em as long as they don't have FZ written on them.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

The 1800uf 6.3v KZGs can be replaced with Sanyo WG caps and Rubycon MCZ/MBZ for the 820uf ones.

And for the polymers, don't worry, those won't go bad,so no need to replace 'em as long as they don't have FZ written on them.

OK thanks for the recommendations....I think the CPU socket polymer caps in my photo are Fujitsu....they have that "F" with two bars logo on them.
Not sure what 614/615 code is (maybe date codes) but I have 2 that have 614 on them and 4 that have 615 on them. I will leave them as is for now though. Thanks again for the replacement suggestions...

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Ok so here's a little update on my dead Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe mobo I'm trying to resurrect....LOL
Before I went and replaced all the KZG caps (even though none had any signs of failure), I decided to bake the board in the oven at 385 degrees for 8 minutes. Pulled it out carefully and hit the 2 naked nvidia chips directly with my heat gun on HI for approx. 5-6 seconds each twice.
I had previously tested the melted solder on a penny trick at 1" and it melted on HI in about 5 seconds so I figured giving them a good bake and then a quick shot with the heatgun would really ensure a good reflow of the two nvidia chips.

Put everything back together, put in an AMD X2 3800+ CPU, re-pasted all the heatsinks with AS5, cleared the CMOS and powered her up!
Posted right up!....one beep, video!!! WOW! I was shocked and amazed!

Got into the Bios, reset things to default, loaded a copy of WinXP Pro. updated all the nforce4 chipset drivers and it ran perfect! Really good temp readings on all chips, and mobo, good RPM on the fans. Mosfet heatsinks were cool, the nvidia chips were cool to the touch. In the past you could fry eggs on those two heatsinks!

Then I decided to try an update from SP2 to SP3, but no matter what I tried I got BSOD crashes when the update restarted!! All it would do was continuous reboots. Multiple attempts was no use!
Just as a test I did the same SP2 to SP3 update on the A8NE-FM board with an FX-60 in it and not a problem, it updated to SP3 restarted and worked perfect.
I know the Fujitsu A8NE-FM board uses a different bios and a single nForce4 Ultra chip rather than the nForce4 SLIx16 dual chipset, so who knows if that's the cause or problem there.
Maybe that's why I remember the A8N32-SLI being such a pain and so finicky..overheating issues, that network manager software that never worked...a lot of weird issues, seemed to be a big problem with those boards? Maybe too much going on with that architecture.
I gave up on the SP3 update and just let it run for a few days, just to see if the temps and voltages would hold up which they did, but wait!!....what's this I see???
I notice the two 1800uf 6.3V KZG caps (power filter caps??) which never showed any sign of failure or leakage had both bulged and leaking guts out the top!!....hehe...?!?! Wow!
So WTH, everything was working great and now I'm back to looking at replacing at least those two KZG caps. I don't think anything else was damaged and I may have spotted them just in time.
Maybe after everything else was brought back to life from the solder reflow, now all the electrolytics will start failing or these were just an indication of a different problem??
Now I'm suspecting my one stick of RAM that was bad may have been a board problem, so I'm going to run a Memtest on that stick in the FM board now to check.
I know this board isn't really worth spending money on, but when I bought and built this setup back in 05-06 I spent a lot of money on it and all cutting edge stuff at the time...hehe....how things have changed.
I'll look around for some replacements (caps are cheap).
I have a ton of them around here (probably not the right kind) but I'll see what I can come up with and see what else happens from there...
Anyway thanks for any insight or comments you guys might have and thanks for a great forum to share and letting me chat about my little project...

[c_hegge]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

385*C for 8 minutes is far too hot for any electrolytic capacitor to handle, even if it's not operating. It probably ruined the electrolyte and the cap has vented after having a voltage applied to it. If you are gonna do an oven reflow, then remove all electrolytic caps first. Also, did you apply any flux to the chips before the reflow? If not, they're probably going to fail again pretty soon.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

385*C for 8 minutes is far too hot for any electrolytic capacitor to handle, even if it's not operating. It probably ruined the electrolyte and the cap has vented after having a voltage applied to it. If you are gonna do an oven reflow, then remove all electrolytic caps first. Also, did you apply any flux to the chips before the reflow? If not, they're probably going to fail again pretty soon.

Hi there c_hegge and thanks for the comment.....I see you're in AUS and my bad....the oven temp was 385F not celsius.....
I think my oven only goes up to 500F (260C)
I forget I could be chatting with international persons who use the smarter metric system unlike we here in the states. Some things will never change around here...maybe someday we'll come around to using metric everywhere. Still it's been a long time hanging onto the old system.

Excellent points though and probably exactly what happened to those two.
Even 385F (196C) is a bit above 105C tolerance for any of those ecaps.
So I guess it was better I had left the old caps in it!
I did wrap components like that with some foil. Not sure how much good that did. But all in all a once dead board did come back to life! And it was all just experimenting.
It's funny too because it was fine for several days and was still working normally before I even noticed those pooched leaky caps. All the other caps still show no sign of any failure.....yet given more time I'm sure they will fail....
I was thinking of replacing them anyway, so it seems like an even better idea now. Do you think I damaged the polymer caps around the CPU socket?
There are also some small "KMG" caps on this board...are these considered "badcaps" like the KZG's.
The types here are KZG, a few KMG's and the 6 polymer Fujitsu caps around the CPU socket.
Of course this is an old board and not really worth much time or money but it was fun to try this oven method out and get some results.
A poor mans desperate resurrection at best! Not exactly something you would do on something important!
I would certainly only recommend it as a last resort which was my situation. I figured if I did get some life out of it, it might be worth replacing the caps. Doing it the other way around would of been a waste of money... Removing the caps and using flux would of course all have been a better method of restoration for sure.
But it did work...

[delaware74b]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

DJ - I have the A8N-SLI Deluxe version of that Asus board. I would replace all KZG's, regardless of their present condition.

I used Nichicon HN as a preventative repair about 2 years ago. I still have a bunch of small-value LTEC general purpose caps on this board. No problems yet, but the caps may be replace as part of a larger order in the future.

My only problem with this board is the cmos dumps its settings when it loses +5VSB, new battery and it still forgets all my settings. Not worries about it, just a backup computer for my broadcastify uploader.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

DJ - I have the A8N-SLI Deluxe version of that Asus board. I would replace all KZG's, regardless of their present condition.

I used Nichicon HN as a preventative repair about 2 years ago. I still have a bunch of small-value LTEC general purpose caps on this board. No problems yet, but the caps may be replace as part of a larger order in the future.

My only problem with this board is the cmos dumps its settings when it loses +5VSB, new battery and it still forgets all my settings. Not worries about it, just a backup computer for my broadcastify uploader.

Hi delaware74b, I think that is what I will do, just replace them all.
Have you had that board since new? It was always a quirky board!...I think it just had too much cutting edge stuff in it's day..but now that it's working again....or was working...it's now sitting here with two bad 1800uf KZG's
Like I mentioned earlier, I bought this one new in 05-06 and I think it died about 2 or even 3 years ago. It looks like about $20 in caps to replace all the electrolytics. I will check and see if I can find the HN series. I'm checking Mouser and Digikey unless you know of a better, cheaper supplier.
Now just trying to decide if I can find a real use for it. I don't really have a need for this one and after the CPU was mishandled and I broke off a pin I was really just going to chuck it. I already have plenty of computers.
But I like working on this stuff, so in a last ditch effort and something to do I managed to get the CPU plugged in with a tiny piece of wire in the socket where the broken pin was and the oven baking thing and viola!
She's alive!

Actually pretty amazing to think these chips and billions of transistors are still all there and still working just like they did 15 years ago. So I guess it behooves me to carry through with it and replace the caps just for the novelty of it. I still have the Antec case for it, but been thinking of some sort of Frankencomputer DIY case of my own too. And then maybe I'll have to find a suitable use for it, I'm sure I could put a 64bit Linux OS on it and use it as a music server or something....

[delaware74b]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

DJ - I had the board in late '05-early '06. I did have to warranty rma the first one due to sudden asus death syndrome (power up, no post, black screen). The replacement is the one i still use.

I looked at the board today, i used Nichicon HM, not the HN series. I know they're not in production, but you may be able to get them from Mouser or Digikey. Like all the senior members here, don't get your caps from evilbay. Get them from authorized suppliers or this site. Topcat should have something that will work with this board and his rates are good!

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

It was certainly a nice board at the time and I think the first one with x16 SLI.
Mine didn't have the WiFi board but that was another feature that was pretty new then. I probably paid close to $3k for everything back then. I still have the working AMD FX-60 CPU that was $1000 back then all by itself. Still have 3 out of 4 good sticks of the Corsair XMS RAM, WinXP Pro OEM and the Antec P180 case. I had a lot of fun putting that all together and it went without a hitch.
The software and drivers were the headache as I recall. Especially that nVidia network manager software. I ended up abandoning that after finding no support or bug fixes. That Marvel Gigabit NIC was stellar though.

I ordered all the caps from Digikey this morning because they were the only ones that had the right diameters. There's no way to fit 10mm in a lot of those tight spots on the board. So I had to make sure they were all 8mm and 5mm for the little ones.
The 1800uf 6.3V were Nichicon HZ series (ultra low impedance)
The 820uf 6.3V were Nichicon HN series
The 1000uf, 470uf and 100uf 16V were all Panasonic FR series
I think it was $25 incl shipping and should be here early next week!
I figured I had gone this far with it so WTH see if I can use it for another 5 years or so...hehe
I'll post a progress report.....

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Those capacitors you bought will work great with that board.

However please remember that since you're affected by the nvidia chipset issue, your board will last for a few months at most before the chipset dies again. No way to prevent that i'm afraid.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Those capacitors you bought will work great with that board.

However please remember that since you're affected by the nvidia chipset issue, your board will last for a few months at most before the chipset dies again. No way to prevent that i'm afraid.

As far as the nvidia chipset issue goes, what's the exact nature of the inevitable failure again?
Will it be the same cracked/fractured solder balls and do people ever bother with re-balling those chips on a board this old?
Not that I would want to get into that and/or have the money to buy the proper tools for that. I do find it all very fascinating though!
It's quite interesting to realize that these chips themselves internally with their million/billions of transistors are perfectly fine and still work....the problem really lies at the connection points to the board...
I assume newer designs nowadays have moved on with better attachment methods?
Thanks for the cap review, glad to know those were good picks..hopefully it will be an easy replacement. I seem to really enjoy futzing with this stuff.
I've been loading different Linux OS's and learning a lot about partitions and bootloaders.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

As far as the nvidia chipset issue goes, what's the exact nature of the inevitable failure again?

Internal manufacturing defect causing areas of the die to overheat and physically detach from the substrate (package).

Simplified version: The die (piece of silicon with mirror finish) is attached to the substrate (the green stuff we usually call "the chip", but it's actually a piece of printed circuit board just like the mainboard), with tiny little solder balls. Just like the ones that attach the substrate to the mainboard, but much, much smaller. They are called bumps.

The bumps are very small and fragile. To improve reliability of the chip, a process called "underfilling" is used, which involves the injection of epoxy resin after the die is soldered down to the substrate, in effect gluing it down. That is why you see epoxy around the edges of the die, that's the underfill material. However, due to different thermal expansion coefficients, this epoxy underfill material must be carefully chosen - too soft and the bumps will break, too hard and thermal cycling will make the epoxy tear apart the substrate, both of which will result in a dead chip. With the mention that a crack in the substrate will result in a chip that is dead for good.

Nvidia used an underfill material that starts softening at 60C and becomes like jelly (basically useless for support purposes) at 80C. What temperatures do these chipsets run at? Hmm...

This issue was compounded by the use of different solder alloys for the bumps and the corresponding pads on the substrate where the bumps solder down to. This particular combination (high lead + eutectic aka regular 63/37 solder) forms a particularly weak bond, as the maximum soldering temperature allowed by the substrate is 260C, while high lead solder takes over 300C to turn liquid. Thus the high lead bumps are never properly soldered to the substrate, they just stick on there enough to provide an electrical connection and rely on the underfill material to provide physical support. This didn't work out at the temperatures these chips run at.

Look up "Bumpgate" and read the articles on SemiAccurate - while Charlie is a bit (okay, a lot) biased against nVidia, most of the information there is technically correct.

do people ever bother with re-balling those chips on a board this old?

Normally not, but if the client asks me nicely, i do. In this case replacing the chipset is a must though, reballing will not help because as i explained above, the problem lies inside the chipset itself, not in its connection with the mainboard.

To prolong the life of the chipset, it should never be allowed to reach temperatures above 60C as reported by its internal thermal sensor. In many cases this is close to impossible, but on a desktop motherboard, you may have a good chance.

[c_hegge]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

This board is Socket 939. I'm pretty sure it predates the issue. IIRC was socket AM2 and 775 chipsets that had the problem.

[djmukilteo]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Internal manufacturing defect causing areas of the die to overheat and physically detach from the substrate (package).

Simplified version: The die (piece of silicon with mirror finish) is attached to the substrate (the green stuff we usually call "the chip", but it's actually a piece of printed circuit board just like the mainboard), with tiny little solder balls. Just like the ones that attach the substrate to the mainboard, but much, much smaller. They are called bumps.

The bumps are very small and fragile. To improve reliability of the chip, a process called "underfilling" is used, which involves the injection of epoxy resin after the die is soldered down to the substrate, in effect gluing it down. That is why you see epoxy around the edges of the die, that's the underfill material. However, due to different thermal expansion coefficients, this epoxy underfill material must be carefully chosen - too soft and the bumps will break, too hard and thermal cycling will make the epoxy tear apart the substrate, both of which will result in a dead chip. With the mention that a crack in the substrate will result in a chip that is dead for good.

Nvidia used an underfill material that starts softening at 60C and becomes like jelly (basically useless for support purposes) at 80C. What temperatures do these chipsets run at? Hmm...

This issue was compounded by the use of different solder alloys for the bumps and the corresponding pads on the substrate where the bumps solder down to. This particular combination (high lead + eutectic aka regular 63/37 solder) forms a particularly weak bond, as the maximum soldering temperature allowed by the substrate is 260C, while high lead solder takes over 300C to turn liquid. Thus the high lead bumps are never properly soldered to the substrate, they just stick on there enough to provide an electrical connection and rely on the underfill material to provide physical support. This didn't work out at the temperatures these chips run at.

Look up "Bumpgate" and read the articles on SemiAccurate - while Charlie is a bit (okay, a lot) biased against nVidia, most of the information there is technically correct.

Normally not, but if the client asks me nicely, i do. In this case replacing the chipset is a must though, reballing will not help because as i explained above, the problem lies inside the chipset itself, not in its connection with the mainboard.

To prolong the life of the chipset, it should never be allowed to reach temperatures above 60C as reported by its internal thermal sensor. In many cases this is close to impossible, but on a desktop motherboard, you may have a good chance.

Thanks for the explanationTh3_uN1Qu3...very interesting and I'll have to do a little reading on "bumpgate".
I take it these issues have been resolved now with the latest motherboards?

It's not that important of a board to me and was more of a shot in the dark and a way to get some experience using a dead board. I had nothing to lose.
It was fun and exciting to have it come back to life, but then to have the two 1800uf caps let go, I'm sure I damaged the rest of them with the bake. Figured I might as well have some fun replacing them all, so I'll do that and go from there. If it fails again I'll just have to decide on it's fate at that time. I'll hope for the best. I really can't think of a use for this board anyway.

Replacing the chipset with a new one makes sense as I now understand it's not just the motherboard connection but the "chip" to plate bonding that can fail. I did see the underfill epoxy along the edges.
Like you said a reball wouldn't cure that.
For me something like this isn't worth that sort of effort.
Fascinating stuff though...

This board is Socket 939. I'm pretty sure it predates the issue. IIRC was socket AM2 and 775 chipsets that had the problem.

Does that mean my nvidia nForce 4 chips might not have this underfill fracture issue?
I believe this board was fabricated in 2005.

On another separate question that I'll throw out to you experts...I'm trying to understand what part of the circuit the two 1800uf caps are in and if I could have caused a potential problem/failure with the surrounding mosfet chips? And that's why they let go? Are these 2 acting as ripple filter caps?
None of the other caps seem to have let go like those did and earlier they were fine. It was only after I noticed them leaking that I shut it down.
I'm planning on replace all the electrolytics anyway (except for the 6 VRM polymers).
Just curious if the heat and bake was the actual cause of those two leaking?
I realize now that that would have really dried those out at 385/8min.
Thanks for all your help and knowledge!!

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Replace caps on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe?

Just curious if the heat and bake was the actual cause of those two leaking?

Most likely yes. KZG are crap caps anyway and you should replace them whenever you see them, as a matter of course. I've had several (formerly) good KZG i harvested from dead boards bulge and leak just sitting in a bag unused.

@ c_hegge - The Bumpgate issue actually goes WAY back. To the GeForce 2.

It's just that most chips until the 6000-7000-8000 series did not run hot enough for this issue to rear its ugly head for a good number of years, and some chips were built better than others. For example the Go7300 did not fail in large numbers, and when it did fail, a simple reflow gave at least 1 year more life from the chip. Also the Go7600 lasts long when reflowed or reballed, despite it running hot. This is due to its fairly stable operating temperature (little difference between idle and load).

Of the desktop 7200 and 7300 series cards, only the passively cooled ones failed, and that after 5+ years of use. The 6600 and 6800 also were largely unaffected, but they did fail after a number of years. The 6100/6150 and 7150 IGPs, all nForce chipsets, Go7200, and the 8000 series (both desktop and mobile) were the most prone to failure. But even those play nice with a healthy dose of undervolting and reasonable operating conditions.

I have personally seen GeForce 2, GeForce 4 Go, nForce 2 and even FX5200 chips affected by this issue, just that it showed late enough for the hardware to have lived its useful life.