Replacing BGA components with hot air.

[keeney123]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Would be nice if the manufacturers would put a BGA socket in so replacement would be a lot easier. It would cost a few cents more, but it would really be worth it until their boards have been proven. Meaning that the design and the manufacturing processes of the boards have less then a 1 % fall out over say a three year period. If they decided to go with a different manufacturer then the socket would go back into place. So a test component could easily be inserted to test the continuity of the contact points to the board. Perhaps by putting a signal on each point and measuring how long it takes to bounce back. Also, if one could heat the socket bad pin separately so the solder would re-flow. The socket material would have to be made out of a material what would allow that type of heat for a short time.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i have some BGA "sockets" and they are fucking expensive - been around for years.

they are plastic frames filled wih tiny gold springs that sit between the chip and pcb.
you need an outer frame fixed to the board to clamp it all down.
they used to be used on SGI workstation cpu's

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i have some BGA "sockets" and they are fucking expensive - been around for years.

they are plastic frames filled wih tiny gold springs that sit between the chip and pcb.
you need an outer frame fixed to the board to clamp it all down.
they used to be used on SGI workstation cpu's

Wouldn't my socket 775 be considered a BGA "socket"? The socket 775 CPUs don't have pins, they have bads. The sockets are soldered to the board and have springs. If those little springs get bent, they can be a real pain to unbend. If they get broken, you need a BGA rework machine to replace them. If you're careful though, you don't really need to worry about replacing them though.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

the pitch on those is pretty big,
i'm talking about vertical coilsprings anyway.

[nojgib]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

OP: If you are only wanting to repair 1 PS3 your best option would be to send it out to someone who can repair it safely. If you are looking to get into reballing I would suggest buying the proper rework equipment. It is expensive to get into, but the equipment will definitely pay for itself over time. The more you can reball the faster it will be worth while.
I invested over 2K years ago and had made that back within a few months (although that was back in the day PS3s brought more....) and that was only working PS3s and 360s.
Pulling a RSX without the proper equipment isn't impossible, but the chances of a failed attempt and damaging components are greatly increased. BTW, the replacement chip would probably come preballed should you decide to go that route.

[keeney123]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

i have some BGA "sockets" and they are fucking expensive - been around for years.

they are plastic frames filled wih tiny gold springs that sit between the chip and pcb.
you need an outer frame fixed to the board to clamp it all down.
they used to be used on SGI workstation cpu's

So are they expensive for any other reason than they just like to charge what ever they can get paid. I also think they could improve how they are mounted and make the pins independent so they could be soldered separately The whole socket soldering could be done at the manufacturer with the special expensive equipment, then if the material was not plastic, but a material that could withstand the heat of a soldering iron and the mounting was made to allow one to solder one pin by applying the heat of a iron that would transmit down the pin to the board where the solder failed and allow it to re-flow on that one pin this would be easier for the field and reduce cost of failures within the first three years. After that the produce and design would be proving.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

it's not soldered, it's loose.
it fits like a washer between the chip and board.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

the pitch on those is pretty big,
i'm talking about vertical coilsprings anyway.

That's cool. Is it something like this?

https://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/...8c_highres.jpg

It says it's a Stamped Spring Pin BGA Socket for Altera 672FBGA

But the price for one is 1264$!!!! That's insane!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

OP: If you are only wanting to repair 1 PS3 your best option would be to send it out to someone who can repair it safely. If you are looking to get into reballing I would suggest buying the proper rework equipment. It is expensive to get into, but the equipment will definitely pay for itself over time. The more you can reball the faster it will be worth while.
I invested over 2K years ago and had made that back within a few months (although that was back in the day PS3s brought more....) and that was only working PS3s and 360s.
Pulling a RSX without the proper equipment isn't impossible, but the chances of a failed attempt and damaging components are greatly increased. BTW, the replacement chip would probably come preballed should you decide to go that route.

Although I would probably start fixing PS3s, I have some broken boards here that I was going to use as experiments.

I was hoping I could build one myself but if I can't find any good how-to's (I lack the knowledge to fully design one from scratch), I will end up saving up the money and purchase one. Out of curiosity, which unit did you go for?

Also, thanks for letting me know about the replacement chip would come pre-balled. Do most BGA chips come pre-balled? I'm going to take a guess that most 360's and maybe even some PS3s probably don't actually need the BGA chip replaced, just reballed. What was your experience there?

Most of the stuff I would work on would more than likely be laptop motherboards and occasionally, a video game console. With the advent of the PS4 / xBox One, I'm guessing there probably isn't such a high demand for PS3 / 360 work now. You said you saved the money up and bought a unit to fix them. Have you noticed the demand to have them fixed has dropped? I know you said fixing them doesn't bring as much money as it used too...just curious if that's because you just don't see a lot of them anymore. Thanks!

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

That's cool. Is it something like this?

https://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/...8c_highres.jpg

It says it's a Stamped Spring Pin BGA Socket for Altera 672FBGA

But the price for one is 1264$!!!! That's insane!

well the base looks similar - i need to take some foto's later.
but that has a top frame etc.

and as you may know the test socket industry has a HUGE markup.

examples.
a 16pin soic test adapter from a dealer costs about 80Euro
i got one from china for £4
spot the difference!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300407604429
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252106127623

[nojgib]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Although I would probably start fixing PS3s, I have some broken boards here that I was going to use as experiments.

I was hoping I could build one myself but if I can't find any good how-to's (I lack the knowledge to fully design one from scratch), I will end up saving up the money and purchase one. Out of curiosity, which unit did you go for?!

I opted for the ACHI IR PRO SC and have no regrets.

Also, thanks for letting me know about the replacement chip would come pre-balled. Do most BGA chips come pre-balled? I'm going to take a guess that most 360's and maybe even some PS3s probably don't actually need the BGA chip replaced, just reballed. What was your experience there?

I would say anything you are going to swap is easy to find preballed (and anything sold as new is balled). The majority of the systems I have encountered only needed reballed, though recently I have been coming across more failed ICs. I'm not certain if it is simply these are getting to the age they are failing or too many systems have had attempted repairs with a heatgun or baking in the oven. There are some laptops I will always replace the GPU rather than reball, and any MacBook I get will always get a replacement. What I look for is posted in the attachment. Most say there is a micro fracture in the solder joint, but I have had plenty of success pulling chips until I find the one (or more) with the balls never properly adhering to the pads

Most of the stuff I would work on would more than likely be laptop motherboards and occasionally, a video game console. With the advent of the PS4 / xBox One, I'm guessing there probably isn't such a high demand for PS3 / 360 work now. You said you saved the money up and bought a unit to fix them. Have you noticed the demand to have them fixed has dropped? I know you said fixing them doesn't bring as much money as it used too...just curious if that's because you just don't see a lot of them anymore. Thanks!

Demand for 360 and PS3 have definitely dropped, and to make a reball worth my time I have to charge more than an Xbox is worth so I don't get many of them. A slim now and then. I still get some PS3s, mostly the backward compatible models with the occasional slim model.
Rework repairs are not limited to Xbox/PS3/laptops. I have had Nintendo DSs, Wiis, TV boards, phones and iPads, even a digital camera come in with BGA or IC problems.
Laptops with BGA problems are fairly common anymore. I think the biggest problem there is most want to throw away their 2 year old laptop and purchase new (other than the Apple products which are much more cost effective to repair). When someone doesn't want to put the money into something I simply offer to waive my diagnostic fee in exchange for keeping their system and I would either use it for parts, or fix and resell it.
When I purchased my ACHI, I ran ads on CL and purchased any broken Xbox and PS3 within a 2 hour radius of me for a few months. I damaged a few until I learned the process, so it's a good thing to have a few practice boards.
Best of luck with whatever path you choose.

[and555]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

Has anyone successfully replaced any BGA components using a hot air rework station? I have a broken PS3 there and was thinking of replacing the RSX chip. It's a BGA component and I don't have a reballer. I was thinking maybe removing the old chip, cleaning the pads with desoldering wick, purchasing a stencil, balls and a new RSX chip. Then I was going to try using a k-type thermocouple to monitor the temperature the best I could and try to hold the temps for however long the profile for the chip says. Would this work? Has anyone tried it before?

I've had a little success with these things by just holding the hot air over the chip to the solder melts under it. But the fix never lasts long. No more than a month or so.

on laptop repair, I did successfully on NM10 chip, but bigger than NM10 chip, I did not successfully.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

on laptop repair, I did successfully on NM10 chip, but bigger than NM10 chip, I did not successfully.

Thanks for the info.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

I found a used ACHI IR PRO SC for 850$ or so. Do you think that's worth it? It runs off 240v. And the best part, I found 240v lines in the house!!! The dryer uses them, which is right next to the work room.

The way my dad wired it up, he cut a big square down by the receptacle and boxed the sheetrock in. So, in the bathroom, where the 240v outlet is, I can see the wire that runs to the outlet, I can see the 2x4's (I think they're called studs). I can see and touch the sheetrock in the work room.

I was thinking of unhooking the 240v from the dryer outlet, hooking up some sort of junction box, have the wire that was going to the dryer outlet go into the junction box and then having two wires coming out. Ones that goes to the dryer's outlet and then one that goes into the work room.

I have absolutely no experience with 240v at all. Are all the outlets the same or is there a chance whatever reballer I purchase would use a totally different outlet then what the dryer uses? Also, what gauge is 240v ran with usually? I'd like to know if I can safely use a 4kW reballer while the dryer's running or if I'd need to use one at a time. It wouldn't be a big problem, I'd just like to know.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

what wattage is the dryer, what's the cable spec, what is at the other end of the cable - breaker/fuse etc.

conectors - your in the u.s.a. - standardisation would be comunism!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

There's no fuses in the breaker box, just breakers. I have no way of tracing the wire to the breaker. I took an educated guess, turned on the dryer, and started flipping some breakers. I figured it wasn't any of the 20 amp or 30 amp's. So, I concentrated on the double's. For example, there's two 50 amp breakers that connected together. You flip both at the same time. There's two 30 amp breakers that are tied together. When I flipped the two 30 amp breakers, the dryer turned off.

I'm a bit confused about the wattage. I'm uploading some pictures. I open the door and look at the sticker. It has two ratings. The sticker says:
120/240 v 60 HZ 5600 W 24 A 3 wire
120/208 v 60 HZ 4400 W 22 A 3 wire

I have no idea why there's two or how to tell if I'm running at 240v or 208v. Here's the pics, maybe you can make some sense out of it, because you guys are more used to 240v than me.

I can also send pictures of the breakers if you'd like, to see what I'm talking about, about how they're tied together.

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

damn, 120-0-120 center-tapped!
i expected 0-240 with a seperate neutral-bonded ground!
you really have shit power standards in that country!

[stj]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

take these.

if you power the circuit with the dryer unplugged and stuff a meter set to 600v / 1000v AC in the L1 and L2 you should see 240v

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

damn, 120-0-120 center-tapped!
i expected 0-240 with a seperate neutral-bonded ground!
you really have shit power standards in that country!

Does that mean it's not really 240v? I was going to purchase that ACHI IR PRO SC. Would I not be able to hook up another outlet to that orange wire in the pics and power this thing? Thanks.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Replacing BGA components with hot air.

I was getting ready to purchase a used ACHI IR PRO SC for 850$ (free shipping). But then I decided to look around a bit and I found, what I think is the same unit, new though, for 680$ (both include free shipping).

Here's the 850$ used one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/achi-IR-PRO-.../152033619085?

Here's the 680$ new one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-Solderi...3D131795974275

Are both these the exact same model number? The guy selling the used one said he paid 3x as much as he's selling it for. Why would the new one be cheaper than the used one? Could they have different hardware inside or something?

From the video I'm watching, it also looks like there's only 1 k-type thermocouple connector. Shouldn't there be more for a good reflow? I should have at least for around the component I'm replacing I figured, and then maybe a couple on the board for the pre-heater...what do you guys think? Should maybe I look for a different one?


Also, on a video I'm watching about the ACHI IR PRO SC, the bottom is 2,000 watt, the top IR heater is 400 watt, giving a total of 2.4 kW, the entire unit uses 2.5 kW. Is that enough? I thought I remember someone saying 4,000 total watts is more normal...